Identity of Sir John Mortimer executed for treason in 1424

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

I've copied below is an abstract of petition dated 1423 submitted by
Sir John Mortimer to Parliament relative to his charges for treason.

Earlier reference has been made to the published record of Sir John
Mortimer's trial in 1424 which is found in Cobbett’s Complete
Collection of State Trials, 1 (1809): 267–268. Cobbett may be viewed
at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zAcyAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA3-PA10&lpg=RA3-PA10&dq=John+Mortimer+Bishop+Hatfield&source=bl&ots=FB8gl6gzam&sig=GmHJ7byOwnz7AjjIweFzUXSj2JQ&hl=en&ei=4bj1Spj0O4aKsgO2rbkO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Mortimer%20Bishop%20Hatfield&f=false

If Sir John Mortimer's alleged statements about being "next heir" to
his cousin, Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March, are true, he would
necessarily have been a legitimate son of Edmund Mortimer, born 1376,
younger son of Edmund de Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March, by his wife,
Philippe of Clarence.

Illegitimate issue could not inherit by the laws of England in this
time period.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +
SC 8/336/15882
[Reference: http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp].

Record Summary
Scope and content

Petitioners: John Mortimer, knight.

Addressees: Commons in Parliament.

Other people mentioned: [Humphrey], Duke of Gloucester; Henry V, King
of England; William Hankeford (Hankford), justice of the King's Bench.

Nature of request: [Left-hand side missing] Mortimer requests that the
commons intercede on his behalf with the duke of Gloucester and lords
of Parliament concerning the accusation of treason made against him.

Endorsement: [None].
Covering dates [1423]

Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before
FOI Act: 30 years

Note Dated to the October 1423 Parliament in PROME (October 1423, no.
18). The petitioner was condemned to death for treason by authority of
Parliament on 26 February 1424.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

For what it is worth, I've copied below a post made earlier this year
by "Brian" on an internet blog "The Yorkist Age," which post concerns
the parentage of Sir John Mortimer. Brian's post is followed by one
by "Tony," followed by a response by "Brian."

As I stated in my earlier post, Sir John Mortimer can't have been
illegitimate if he was "next heir" to Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of
March. We can be certain of this as bastards were not able to inherit
anything by descent by the laws of England then in force.

Thus, the term "next heir" indicates that Sir John Mortimer was
claiming to be a legitimate male kinsman of Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl
of March. Sir John Mortimer also allegedly claimed to be next in line
to the throne after Edmund Mortimer, which can only mean he was
claiming to be a lineal descendant of Philippe of Clarence, wife of
Edmund de Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
The Yorkist Age
[Reference: http://yorkistage.blogspot.com/2009/02/note-about-sir-john-mortimer.html]

Wednesday, 18 February 2009
A note about Sir John Mortimer
Who was Sir John Mortimer?

Frankly, I have no idea! I've seen a family tree (In Felbrigg Hall,
Norfolk, of all places) that made him the legitimate brother of Roger,
4th Earl of March and Sir Edmund Mortimer. However, I can find no
other trace of him as such. He does not figure in the index of Wylie's
History of England Under Henry IV, and if you're anyone at all in
Henry's reign (and often if you're no one) you show up there.

Could he possibly have been an illegitimate son of the 3rd or 4th
earl? Yes. Could he possibly have been a son of Sir Edmund Mortimer?
Maybe, but almost certainly not by Catrin ferch Owain. Might he have
been a collateral kinsman - for example a son of that Sir Thomas
Mortimer who is a known illegitimate uncle of the 4th earl? Could
be...

All we can say for certain is that the bloke was accused of treason in
1421 and executed (on the basis of an Act of Attainder - no trial) in
1424. And he was a 'kinsman' of the Earl of March.

If anyone knows more, please tell me.
Posted by Brian at 14:20
Labels: Sir John Mortimer
2 comments:

Tony said...

Brian,

Just following threads on John Cade and wondering if this could be
his father.

There seem to be many co-incidences that have lead me here and
might explain how John Cade had such a large following and the support
of the Duke of York.

It may also explain why there was such little information about
him and his 'father' as History tends to wipe out unpopuar characters.

Talking of unpopular characters John Cade (Mortimer) had married a
Lady of good position and led a rebellion that defeated the Kings Army
which isn't bad for someone described as a murderer and Irishman.
Probably two extreame insults for the times.

Just think it may be a useful link.
Duke of Clarence?

Regards Tony
12 October 2009 09:07
Brian said...

It's certainly a possibility, Tony.

I would be a lot happier if I could figure out who exactly Sir
John Mortimer himself was, and why he was such a threat. The Mortimers
did have various illegitimate lines (qv Thomas Mortimer in the reign
of Richard II) and it may be that Cade came from one.

Cade may well have received tacit support from York or his circle.
One of the features of York's career was that various associated
people (William Oldhall for one) 'put themselves forward'. It's hard
to discern whether they were always acting with York's express
approval, and this fog may well have been deliberate. Alternatively
they may have been working independently of 'the boss' and playing the
part of the tail that wags the dog.
12 October 2009 13:49

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The following is a weblink to a petition dated 1421 written by
Eleanor, wife of Sir John Mortimer, to John, Duke of Bedford and the
king’s council regarding the imprisonment of her husband:

Source: Nicolas, Proceedings and Ordinances of the Privy Council of
England, 2 (1834): 311–312.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tiEPAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA311&dq=John+Mortimer+Eleanor+1424#v=onepage&q=John%20Mortimer%20Eleanor%201424&f=false

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Matt ~

You're correct to question the name of Sir John Mortimer's wife in his
IPM as being Alice.

Sir John Mortimer's only known wife and subsequently his widow was
Eleanor Rossall, daughter and co-heiress of Walter Rossall, of
Rossall, Shropshire. She was born about 1377, and died 28 Dec.
1432. At the time that Sir John Mortimer married Eleanor Rossall c.
1409, she was then the widow of Sir Nicholas Dagworth (died 1402), of
Blickling, Norfolk. Sir Nicholas Dagworth was a a favorite of King
Richard II and a prominent knight of the king's chamber. Sir John
Mortimer and Eleanor Rossall had no issue. At her death in 1432,
Eleanor's heir was her sister, Alice Rossall's son, John Englefield,
then aged 30 and more.

For more detailed information on the life of Eleanor (Rossall)
(Dagworth) Mortimer, see Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 29-31 (sub
Dagworth) and Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 2 (1992): 733–734
(biog. of Sir Nicholas Dagworth).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Nov 5, 5:11 am, Matt Tompkins <***@le.ac.uk> wrote:
< Sir John Mortimer's Inquisition post Mortem (PRO ref. C 139/9/14,
mm.
< 1-2), dated 7 August 1424, appears in the Calendar of IPMs, vol. 22
< (1-5 Henry V).  Unfortunately it provides no genealogical
information,
< except for a reference to his surviving widow Alice - which is odd,
as
< Powell's 'Strange death of Sir John Mortimer' essay says he married
< Eleanor Russall, daughter of Sir Walter Russall in Shropshire
(through
< whom Mortimer had acquired the manor of Russall), and implies that
she
< was the wife who survived him.
<
< According to the IPM the only lands Mortimer had at his death were a
< small collection of sub-manorial tenancies, scattered across three
< parishes in Hertfordshire (Hatfield, Bramfield and Diggswell) and
< totalling just 300 acres, which he had vested in feoffees in June
1423
< (one of whom was the bishop of Winchester) so there was no need to
< identify an heir, though the jurors did report that his widow Alice
< had taken the revenues since his forfeiture.
<
< Matt Tompkins

[Matt Tompkins]

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Matt
You're correct to question the name of Sir John Mortimer's wife in his
IPM as being Alice.
Sir John Mortimer's only known wife and subsequently his widow was
Eleanor Rossall, daughter and co-heiress of Walter Rossall, of
Rossall, Shropshire.  She was born about 1377, and died 28 Dec.
1432.   At the time that Sir John  Mortimer married Eleanor Rossall c.
1409, she was then the widow of Sir Nicholas Dagworth (died 1402), of
Blickling, Norfolk.  Sir Nicholas Dagworth was a a favorite of King
Richard II and a prominent knight of the king's chamber.  Sir John
Mortimer and Eleanor Rossall had no issue.  At her death in 1432,
Eleanor's heir was her sister, Alice Rossall's son, John Englefield,
then aged 30 and more.
For more detailed information on the life of Eleanor (Rossall)
(Dagworth) Mortimer, see Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 29-31 (sub
Dagworth) and Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 2 (1992): 733–734
(biog. of Sir Nicholas Dagworth).

Ah! Well done, Douglas - a good bit of sleuthing. I wonder what
caused Stirnet to think Sir John Mortimer's marriage in 1409 was to
"Alice Neville, daughter of John, 3rd Lord Neville of Raby and widow
(since 1381) of William, 3rd Lord Deincourt." Was she perhaps the
husband of a different Sir John Mortimer, knt? There was a Sir John
Mortimer of Martley and Kyre Wyrard in Worcestershire who died on 28
Oct 1415 (his IPM is in Birmingham City Archives - he left a son and
heir, also called John, aged 5 and over - and he is mentioned in the
VCH Worcs chapter on Kyre Wyrard, iv, 289-97) - could he have been her
husband?

The tiny landholdings of the Sir John Mortimer who was executed in
1424 - smaller even than a single manor - is surely an argument
against his having been a legitimate or close relation of the earls of
March, and a pointer towards his having been a bastard, or at best the
younger son of a younger son. It's interesting, too, that his first
and only wife was a widow - by coincidence, I have just been reading
Christine Carpenter's comments in 'Locality and Polity: a Study of
Warwickshire Landed Society, 1401-1499', p. 102, that heiresses tended
to be married to heirs, or if to younger sons then to scions of
prominent families, and that men with little land or unimpressive
connections often had to make do with widows (whose landed wealth was
only a temporary benefit).

Matt

[Alan DeCarlo]

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Matt
You're correct to question the name of Sir John Mortimer's wife in his
IPM as being Alice.
Sir John Mortimer's only known wife and subsequently his widow was
Eleanor Rossall, daughter and co-heiress of Walter Rossall, of
Rossall, Shropshire. She was born about 1377, and died 28 Dec.
1432. At the time that Sir John Mortimer married Eleanor Rossall c.
1409, she was then the widow of Sir Nicholas Dagworth (died 1402), of
Blickling, Norfolk. Sir Nicholas Dagworth was a a favorite of King
Richard II and a prominent knight of the king's chamber. Sir John
Mortimer and Eleanor Rossall had no issue. At her death in 1432,
Eleanor's heir was her sister, Alice Rossall's son, John Englefield,
then aged 30 and more.
For more detailed information on the life of Eleanor (Rossall)
(Dagworth) Mortimer, see Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 29-31 (sub
Dagworth) and Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 2 (1992): 733–734
(biog. of Sir Nicholas Dagworth).

Ah! Well done, Douglas - a good bit of sleuthing. I wonder what
caused Stirnet to think Sir John Mortimer's marriage in 1409 was to
"Alice Neville, daughter of John, 3rd Lord Neville of Raby and widow
(since 1381) of William, 3rd Lord Deincourt." Was she perhaps the
husband of a different Sir John Mortimer, knt? There was a Sir John
Mortimer of Martley and Kyre Wyrard in Worcestershire who died on 28
Oct 1415 (his IPM is in Birmingham City Archives - he left a son and
heir, also called John, aged 5 and over - and he is mentioned in the
VCH Worcs chapter on Kyre Wyrard, iv, 289-97) - could he have been her
husband?
The tiny landholdings of the Sir John Mortimer who was executed in
1424 - smaller even than a single manor - is surely an argument
against his having been a legitimate or close relation of the earls of
March, and a pointer towards his having been a bastard, or at best the
younger son of a younger son. It's interesting, too, that his first
and only wife was a widow - by coincidence, I have just been reading
Christine Carpenter's comments in 'Locality and Polity: a Study of
Warwickshire Landed Society, 1401-1499', p. 102, that heiresses tended
to be married to heirs, or if to younger sons then to scions of
prominent families, and that men with little land or unimpressive
connections often had to make do with widows (whose landed wealth was
only a temporary benefit).
Matt

Here is the response of the Mortimer Society
Dear Alan,

Your message about Sir John Mortimer has been passed to me to answer. My apologies for the delay, but I have been busy for the last few days.

To answer your questions regarding Sir John Mortimer, executed 1424:

1) The relationship is not correct/true. There is no evidence that Sir John was a legitimate son of Edmund Mortimer, 3rd earl of March, and his wife, Philippa. Indeed, there is no evidence at all of John Mortimer's parentage. Because of his execution, some historians have assumed that he must have been an illegitimate son of either Edmund, 3rd earl, or Roger, 4th earl. However, I am currently editing an anthology of essays on the Mortimers which is due to be published in July. One of the essays is on Sir John Mortimer, and it conclusively shows that he was not an illegitimate son of one of the earls, nor linked to one of the direct lines of the Mortimers of Wigmore. It shows that his descent is extremely obscure, but possibly he was a distant relative of a junior line from the junior branch of the Mortimers of Chirk/Tedstone Wafre.

2) Yes, the Sir John Mortimer who was executed in 1424 was the husband of Eleanor Rossall

3) John Mortimer, as he was then, married Eleanor Rosall in c.1409. We know Eleanor was aged about 26 and that it was Eleanor's second marriage, and there are no records of any children; however, there are no reliable records that we know of for John Mortimer earlier than his marriage. So, we don't know whether he had a daughter from a previous relationship. What is your source for this?

I trust this is helpful.

Best Wishes,

Philip

Philip Hume FSA
Secretary, Mortimer History Society

[Alan DeCarlo]

Post by Douglas Richardson
Dear Matt
You're correct to question the name of Sir John Mortimer's wife in his
IPM as being Alice.
Sir John Mortimer's only known wife and subsequently his widow was
Eleanor Rossall, daughter and co-heiress of Walter Rossall, of
Rossall, Shropshire. She was born about 1377, and died 28 Dec.
1432. At the time that Sir John Mortimer married Eleanor Rossall c.
1409, she was then the widow of Sir Nicholas Dagworth (died 1402), of
Blickling, Norfolk. Sir Nicholas Dagworth was a a favorite of King
Richard II and a prominent knight of the king's chamber. Sir John
Mortimer and Eleanor Rossall had no issue. At her death in 1432,
Eleanor's heir was her sister, Alice Rossall's son, John Englefield,
then aged 30 and more.
For more detailed information on the life of Eleanor (Rossall)
(Dagworth) Mortimer, see Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 29-31 (sub
Dagworth) and Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 2 (1992): 733–734
(biog. of Sir Nicholas Dagworth).

Ah! Well done, Douglas - a good bit of sleuthing. I wonder what
caused Stirnet to think Sir John Mortimer's marriage in 1409 was to
"Alice Neville, daughter of John, 3rd Lord Neville of Raby and widow
(since 1381) of William, 3rd Lord Deincourt." Was she perhaps the
husband of a different Sir John Mortimer, knt? There was a Sir John
Mortimer of Martley and Kyre Wyrard in Worcestershire who died on 28
Oct 1415 (his IPM is in Birmingham City Archives - he left a son and
heir, also called John, aged 5 and over - and he is mentioned in the
VCH Worcs chapter on Kyre Wyrard, iv, 289-97) - could he have been her
husband?
The tiny landholdings of the Sir John Mortimer who was executed in
1424 - smaller even than a single manor - is surely an argument
against his having been a legitimate or close relation of the earls of
March, and a pointer towards his having been a bastard, or at best the
younger son of a younger son. It's interesting, too, that his first
and only wife was a widow - by coincidence, I have just been reading
Christine Carpenter's comments in 'Locality and Polity: a Study of
Warwickshire Landed Society, 1401-1499', p. 102, that heiresses tended
to be married to heirs, or if to younger sons then to scions of
prominent families, and that men with little land or unimpressive
connections often had to make do with widows (whose landed wealth was
only a temporary benefit).
Matt

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

With regard to Sir John Mortimer's alleged statements regarding his
kinship to Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March which were repeated at
his trial in 1424 [see Cobbett’s Complete Coll. of State Trials 1
(1809): 267–268], Sir John may well have been Earl Edmund's next heir
male in 1424, but he was neither son or grandson of Philippe of
Clarence, wife of Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March. As such, he
would have had no claim whatsoever to the throne as alleged at his
trial.

Even so, apparently on the basis of the second hand gossip given at
his trial in 1424, the historian Sandford placed Sir John Mortimer as
the uncle of the Earl of March. But he certainly was not that. The
lengthy and detailed will of an earlier Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of
March, dated 1380 conclusively proves he had but two sons, Roger and
Edmund, and no son John [see Nichols, Collection of All the Wills
(1780): 104–117]. As such, Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl, had no uncle
named John Mortimer as claimed by Sandford.

Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl, did, however, have two brothers, Roger and
Thomas, Knt., and it may be that Sir John Mortimer of Hatfield
(executed 1424) descends from one of them. But even that is difficult
with respect to Sir Thomas Mortimer (brother of Edmund, 3rd Earl), as
Thomas' only known marriage to Agnes Poynings, widow of William
Bardolf, 4th Lord Bardfolf, took place shortly after 10 April 1386.
Thomas and Agnes are not known to have had children. On the other
hand, Sir John Mortimer was apparently born about 1375, as he first
occurs in the records c.1401. And, it appears that Sir John
Mortimer's only known wife, Eleanor Rossall, was born c.1377. While
it is still possible that Sir John Mortimer was a nephew of Edmund
Mortimer, 3rd Earl, it is unlikely he was a son of Sir Thomas
Mortimer's only known marriage to Agnes Poynings. The possibility
remains that Sir John Mortimer was the son of Sir Thomas Mortimer by a
marriage earlier than that to Agnes Poynings, or that he was the son
of Earl Edmund and Sir Thomas Mortimer's remaining brother, Roger
Mortimer, about whom little is known.

The facts of this case once again underscore the extreme difficulty is
giving credence to salacious second hand gossip to support wild
allegations such as King Henry VIII's alleged bastard children by Mary
Boleyn, even when that gossip is repeated at a state trial with many
prominent witnesses being present.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah