Discussion:
the Comyn family
(too old to reply)
David
2004-09-30 16:48:21 UTC
Permalink
I have a question about the Comyn family, the one that dominated Scottish politics in the
thirteenth century.
I have always seen John Comyn of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce, referred to as
"the Red Comyn."
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal nickname. However,
in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter Traquair, he states the
following:
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch line....The cadet branch,
the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."

This is the first mention I have seen of Black Comyn's! What led to the designation of red
and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms or some general physical
characteristic or perhaps something else?
--
David Rorer
allan connochie
2004-10-03 06:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I have a question about the Comyn family, the one that dominated Scottish politics in the
thirteenth century.
I have always seen John Comyn of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce, referred to as
"the Red Comyn."
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal nickname. However,
in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter Traquair, he states the
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch line....The cadet branch,
the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."
This is the first mention I have seen of Black Comyn's! What led to the designation of red
and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms or some general physical
characteristic or perhaps something else?
I think you were right the first time. The Red Comyn [traditionally stabbed
by Bruce and finished off by the future king's compatriots] was the son of
the Black Comyn [who fought with Wallace]. In turn the father of the Black
Comyn had also been nick-named the Red Comyn. Presumably just descriptive
nick-names!


Allan
Post by David
--
David Rorer
David
2004-10-05 01:06:07 UTC
Permalink
"David" wrote in message
Post by David
I have always seen John Comyn II of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce,
referred to as "the Red Comyn."
Post by David
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal
nickname. However, in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter
Traquair,
Post by David
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch
line....
The cadet branch, the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."
What led to the designation of red and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms
or some general
physical characteristic or perhaps something else?
I think you were right the first time. The Red Comyn
John Comyn II, lord of Badenoch [traditionally stabbed
by Bruce and finished off by the future king's compatriots] was the son of
the Black Comyn
John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch [who fought with Wallace]. In turn the father of the Black
Comyn
William Comyn, Earl of Buchan d 1233
had also been nick-named the Red Comyn. Presumably just descriptive
nick-names!
Allan
Since posting the original question I have had pointed out that of the most recent works
on the family, "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314" by Alan Young
(published 1997) contains the following end note on p178 n18

"John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch, was the first "Red Comyn", a title
generally used by the head of the senior, Badenoch, branch of the
family. The soubriquet seems to have been derived from the heraldic
color of the Badenoch branch of the family."

The author makes no mention of the "Black Comyn" and this is indeed the only mention he
makes of a "Red Comyn"

The Comyn Family Tree, in the same book, shows John Comyn I of Badenoch as being a
grandson of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1233) by William's first wife.
John Earl of Buchan (mentioned by Peter Traquair as the head of the "black" or cadet
branch, is shown as a grandson of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan by his second wife, his
father being Alexander Earl of Buchan.
John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch does not appear to have ever been styled as Earl of Buchan.

However, a google search on "Comyn" turns up several entries that indicate John Comyn I,
lord of Badenoch was known as "the Black Comyn" and that his son John Comyn II, lord of
Badenoch was known as "the Red Comyn" to distinguish him from his father!!

Thus I now have three different stories, having as their only point of agreement that John
Comyn II of Badenoch was known as "the Red Comyn"!!

Can anyone suggest which might be the most probable story?
One thing does appear certain, the almost constant referral of John Comyn II, lord of
Badenoch as "the Red Comyn" has elevated his nickname almost to the status of a personal
name.

David Rorer
allan connochie
2004-10-05 07:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
"David" wrote in message
Post by David
I have always seen John Comyn II of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce,
referred to as "the Red Comyn."
Post by David
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal
nickname. However, in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter
Traquair,
Post by David
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch
line....
The cadet branch, the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."
What led to the designation of red and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms
or some general
physical characteristic or perhaps something else?
I think you were right the first time. The Red Comyn
John Comyn II, lord of Badenoch [traditionally stabbed
by Bruce and finished off by the future king's compatriots] was the son of
the Black Comyn
John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch [who fought with Wallace]. In turn the father of the Black
Comyn
William Comyn, Earl of Buchan d 1233
had also been nick-named the Red Comyn. Presumably just descriptive
nick-names!
Allan
Since posting the original question I have had pointed out that of the most recent works
on the family, "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314" by Alan Young
(published 1997) contains the following end note on p178 n18
"John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch, was the first "Red Comyn", a title
generally used by the head of the senior, Badenoch, branch of the
family. The soubriquet seems to have been derived from the heraldic
color of the Badenoch branch of the family."
The author makes no mention of the "Black Comyn" and this is indeed the only mention he
makes of a "Red Comyn"
The Comyn Family Tree, in the same book, shows John Comyn I of Badenoch as being a
grandson of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1233) by William's first wife.
John Earl of Buchan (mentioned by Peter Traquair as the head of the "black" or cadet
branch, is shown as a grandson of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan by his second wife, his
father being Alexander Earl of Buchan.
John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch does not appear to have ever been styled as Earl of Buchan.
His cousin John Comyn (from William's second marriage) was Earl of Buchan.
It can get confusing as there are many people with the same name and not all
are father and son. Piecing things together from various sources, including
a Comyn family tree in the Edinburgh History of Scotland Vol 1 by Professor
A.A.M Duncan, I have came up with the following.

William Comyn's first wife died (name unknown) and he married Marjory,
daughter to the Earl of Buchan. The children of the second marriage were
styled Black Comyns. Alexander became Earl of Buchan as did his son John.

The children of the first marriage were styled the Red Comyns. The children
were Richard, Joan (who married William the Earl of Ross) and Walter Lord of
Badenoch and by marriage Earl of Menteith. Walter left no heirs so the
Lordship of Badenoch was passed onto his nephew John (son of Richard) who
became second Lord of Badenoch.

It is this first John who is seemingly personally styled the Red Comyn. One
of his sons is also called John and he was styled the Black Comyn to
differentiate him from his father (confusing us all as he is of the Red
Comyn branch). This Black Comyn (of the Red Comyns) became Guardian of
Scotland. It was his son John, who was like his grand-father styled the Red
Comyn, who was stabbed by Bruce.

cheers

Allan
David
2004-10-05 22:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Thank you so very much Allan. Thou art a prince among men!!!
Post by David
Post by David
"David" wrote in message
Post by David
I have always seen John Comyn II of Badenoch, who was killed by The
Bruce,
Post by David
referred to as "the Red Comyn."
Post by David
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal
nickname. However, in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence"
by Peter
Post by David
Traquair,
Post by David
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch
line....
The cadet branch, the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of
Buchan."
Post by David
What led to the designation of red and black? Was it the differencing in
the coat of arms
Post by David
or some general
physical characteristic or perhaps something else?
I think you were right the first time. The Red Comyn
John Comyn II, lord of Badenoch [traditionally stabbed
by Bruce and finished off by the future king's compatriots] was the son
of
Post by David
the Black Comyn
John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch [who fought with Wallace]. In turn the
father of the Black
Post by David
Comyn
William Comyn, Earl of Buchan d 1233
had also been nick-named the Red Comyn. Presumably just descriptive
nick-names!
Allan
Since posting the original question I have had pointed out that of the
most recent works
Post by David
on the family, "Robert the Bruce's Rivals: The Comyns, 1212-1314" by Alan
Young
Post by David
(published 1997) contains the following end note on p178 n18
"John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch, was the first "Red Comyn", a title
generally used by the head of the senior, Badenoch, branch of the
family. The soubriquet seems to have been derived from the heraldic
color of the Badenoch branch of the family."
The author makes no mention of the "Black Comyn" and this is indeed the
only mention he
Post by David
makes of a "Red Comyn"
The Comyn Family Tree, in the same book, shows John Comyn I of Badenoch as
being a
Post by David
grandson of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1233) by William's first
wife.
Post by David
John Earl of Buchan (mentioned by Peter Traquair as the head of the
"black" or cadet
Post by David
branch, is shown as a grandson of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan by his
second wife, his
Post by David
father being Alexander Earl of Buchan.
John Comyn I, lord of Badenoch does not appear to have ever been styled as
Earl of Buchan.
His cousin John Comyn (from William's second marriage) was Earl of Buchan.
It can get confusing as there are many people with the same name and not all
are father and son. Piecing things together from various sources, including
a Comyn family tree in the Edinburgh History of Scotland Vol 1 by Professor
A.A.M Duncan, I have came up with the following.
William Comyn's first wife died (name unknown) and he married Marjory,
daughter to the Earl of Buchan. The children of the second marriage were
styled Black Comyns. Alexander became Earl of Buchan as did his son John.
The children of the first marriage were styled the Red Comyns. The children
were Richard, Joan (who married William the Earl of Ross) and Walter Lord of
Badenoch and by marriage Earl of Menteith. Walter left no heirs so the
Lordship of Badenoch was passed onto his nephew John (son of Richard) who
became second Lord of Badenoch.
It is this first John who is seemingly personally styled the Red Comyn. One
of his sons is also called John and he was styled the Black Comyn to
differentiate him from his father (confusing us all as he is of the Red
Comyn branch). This Black Comyn (of the Red Comyns) became Guardian of
Scotland. It was his son John, who was like his grand-father styled the Red
Comyn, who was stabbed by Bruce.
cheers
Allan
Lesley Robertson
2004-10-05 08:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
Can anyone suggest which might be the most probable story?
One thing does appear certain, the almost constant referral of John Comyn II, lord of
Badenoch as "the Red Comyn" has elevated his nickname almost to the status of a personal
name.
It was the heraldry.
Lesley Robertson
Lesley Robertson
2004-10-05 08:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Robertson
Post by David
Can anyone suggest which might be the most probable story?
One thing does appear certain, the almost constant referral of John Comyn II, lord of
Badenoch as "the Red Comyn" has elevated his nickname almost to the status of a personal
name.
It was the heraldry.
Lesley Robertson
Just remembered that there's another pair like this - Red and Black Douglas.
Used to fight between themselves a lot.
Lesley Robertson
David
2004-10-06 23:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lesley Robertson
Post by Lesley Robertson
Post by David
Can anyone suggest which might be the most probable story?
One thing does appear certain, the almost constant referral of John Comyn II, lord of
Badenoch as "the Red Comyn" has elevated his nickname almost to the
status of a personal
name.
It was the heraldry.
Lesley Robertson
Just remembered that there's another pair like this - Red and Black Douglas.
Used to fight between themselves a lot.
Lesley Robertson
But even before these was Ferchar Og, known as "the Red Abbot" who came from Ireland in
the 7th cent to found a religious settlement in Glendochart!
Which prompts the question, is this really about a color or could this be a
mis-translation of a Gaelic word into English?
Lesley Robertson
2004-10-07 08:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
But even before these was Ferchar Og, known as "the Red Abbot" who came from Ireland in
the 7th cent to found a religious settlement in Glendochart!
Which prompts the question, is this really about a color or could this be a
mis-translation of a Gaelic word into English?
When it refers to an individual, it is frequently to do with the colour of
their hair.
Lesley Robertson
Abrigon Gusiq
2004-12-25 02:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Like Red Hugh O'Donnel, cause of his hair color. Some name for their
lives and how they kill people, Red = blood.

Mike
Post by David
Post by David
I have a question about the Comyn family, the one that dominated Scottish
politics in the
Post by David
thirteenth century.
I have always seen John Comyn of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce,
referred to as
Post by David
"the Red Comyn."
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal
nickname. However,
Post by David
in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter Traquair,
he states the
Post by David
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch
line....The cadet branch,
Post by David
the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."
This is the first mention I have seen of Black Comyn's! What led to the
designation of red
Post by David
and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms or some general
physical
Post by David
characteristic or perhaps something else?
I think you were right the first time. The Red Comyn [traditionally stabbed
by Bruce and finished off by the future king's compatriots] was the son of
the Black Comyn [who fought with Wallace]. In turn the father of the Black
Comyn had also been nick-named the Red Comyn. Presumably just descriptive
nick-names!
Allan
Post by David
--
David Rorer
Abrigon Gusiq
2004-12-25 02:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Interesting, since Comyn, was a name used for a class of people in a
book of fiction by M.Zimmer Bradley, about a group of colonists who
landed on a low tech world, intermarry (by accident), with an
elven/fairy like race (tall/willowy/etc) and developed psionic powers
called "Laran".

Mike
Abrigon lives
Post by David
I have a question about the Comyn family, the one that dominated Scottish politics in the
thirteenth century.
I have always seen John Comyn of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce, referred to as
"the Red Comyn."
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal nickname. However,
in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter Traquair, he states the
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch line....The cadet branch,
the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."
This is the first mention I have seen of Black Comyn's! What led to the designation of red
and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms or some general physical
characteristic or perhaps something else?
--
David Rorer
David Rorer
2004-12-27 01:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I am familiar with the Darkover Books by MZB. Once had most of them,
however, have graduated to real life Scottish History. Far more fascinating!
David Rorer
Post by Abrigon Gusiq
Interesting, since Comyn, was a name used for a class of people in a
book of fiction by M.Zimmer Bradley, about a group of colonists who
landed on a low tech world, intermarry (by accident), with an
elven/fairy like race (tall/willowy/etc) and developed psionic powers
called "Laran".
Mike
Abrigon lives
Post by David
I have a question about the Comyn family, the one that dominated Scottish politics in the
thirteenth century.
I have always seen John Comyn of Badenoch, who was killed by The Bruce, referred to as
"the Red Comyn."
Having seen no other explanation I had assumed that it was a personal nickname. However,
in "Freedom's Sword, Scotland's Wars of Independence" by Peter Traquair, he states the
"John Comyn the elder led the senior branch, the red or Badenoch
line....The cadet branch,
the black, was led by another John Comyn, earl of Buchan."
This is the first mention I have seen of Black Comyn's! What led to the
designation of red
and black? Was it the differencing in the coat of arms or some general physical
characteristic or perhaps something else?
--
David Rorer
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