Discussion:
Ukraine
(too old to reply)
Tiglath
2023-01-06 21:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Democrats, watch out for excessive glucose... so much candy and caramel... all of a sudden: McCarthy’s defenestration and the one soon to rival it... T****’s 2024 campaign... this must be the start of the beginning of The Reckoning. History’s conclusions? Shweet!

“I’m beginning to like this.”

- Janet Jackson (Nasty Boys)


Pootin seems to be the only competent Russian official, left. Look at the mileage he gets out of his crying nuclear wolf repeatedly. It’s simply fantastic for a nation less rich than Italy. How he induces high levels of hesitancy into the amount of aid the US and the allies will provide to Ukraine, and keeps it below adequacy to win the war (see what we did for Israel in the Yom Kippur War to strike a difference). Pootin risked that a less timid opponent would have called his bluff long ago, because bluff is all it is. He has cojones to scream nukes a few more times and it will still work, I think. That is about the only thing he’s done right, because he is in a war where he cannot see the enemy and the enemy sees every move he makes in the field. It’s David against Mr. Magoo, not Goliath.

Critics of Ukraine aid should be informed of the amazing bargain we are getting. Pouring the national treasure into spying efforts would not return the information this war is providing at a fraction, since it entails putting our enemy to the most rigorous of field tests, genuine war, which cannot be done surreptitiously. Old and new weapons can be tested in a real fight to the death, gratis of American blood, we only need provide the ordnance and the know-how. Then comes the amazing strategic value of the results of the test. We know now what no intelligence operation could tell us, about the capabilities of all branches of the Russian military, except their nuclear operation. We know that no Russian tank can resist our Javelins and similar smart AT weapons. We know their thinking is locked in the 20th century when they spend great effort building Maginot lines in the age of drones, smart bombs and asymmetrical warfare. We know that even by WWII standards, their logistics and supply chains are terrible. We wait to try our weapons on the T-14 Armata, MBT, and may soon be able to blow them up too, I expect. The Russian air force and navy have failed and lay low cowering. That’s a fantastic deal for the US and the rest of NATO: priceless knowledge and benefits that cost only money. Who cares... we’ll make more.

Nice touch to blame Russian recruits’ cell phone use for the latest Ukraine hit. Yeah, right. If a cellphone signal is all it took to prompt a HIMARS attack, Russians would be using battalions of phone relays in deep forests mimicking the signature of troop concentrations, to confuse the enemy. I am 99.9% sure we provided targeting information. We had eyes on the actual troops all the time, as we are studying every move Russians make. It may take hours or days to process the images and assign a tactical value, but large concentrations of troops and ammo take days or weeks probably to gather, dig in and camouflage.

We have constant clear eyes over the whole theater, I believe. No way we would be sending Patriots, unless we had the ability to discern the kind of incoming munitions far from their target, and decide whether the attack warrants shooting a missile worth several million dollars. Otherwise, Putin has a very easy way to deplete Ukrainian Patriot missiles with cheap countermeasures posing as ballistic missiles. We know what flies and what moves as if we had Superman’s eyes in the sky... think of what supersecret military satellites can see in the age of the Webb Telescope... , which sees through light years of galactic gas clumps in frequencies human beings happen to radiate.

The thought crossed of what Hannibal did to bumbling idiots. Trebia, Trasimeno, etc., however, Russia has no incipient Scipio in sight. Big battles lie ahead, especially if Crimea is besieged.

The Russian army is not like the Soviet army, though, the Soviet army had Ukrainians in it.

2023... unbelievable, isn’t it?

Cheers
Peter Jason
2023-01-06 21:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Democrats, watch out for excessive glucose... so much candy and caramel... all of a sudden: McCarthy’s defenestration and the one soon to rival it... T****’s 2024 campaign... this must be the start of the beginning of The Reckoning. History’s conclusions? Shweet!
“I’m beginning to like this.”
- Janet Jackson (Nasty Boys)
Pootin seems to be the only competent Russian official, left. Look at the mileage he gets out of his crying nuclear wolf repeatedly. It’s simply fantastic for a nation less rich than Italy. How he induces high levels of hesitancy into the amount of aid the US and the allies will provide to Ukraine, and keeps it below adequacy to win the war (see what we did for Israel in the Yom Kippur War to strike a difference). Pootin risked that a less timid opponent would have called his bluff long ago, because bluff is all it is. He has cojones to scream nukes a few more times and it will still work, I think. That is about the only thing he’s done right, because he is in a war where he cannot see the enemy and the enemy sees every move he makes in the field. It’s David against Mr. Magoo, not Goliath.
Critics of Ukraine aid should be informed of the amazing bargain we are getting. Pouring the national treasure into spying efforts would not return the information this war is providing at a fraction, since it entails putting our enemy to the most rigorous of field tests, genuine war, which cannot be done surreptitiously. Old and new weapons can be tested in a real fight to the death, gratis of American blood, we only need provide the ordnance and the know-how. Then comes the amazing strategic value of the results of the test. We know now what no intelligence operation could tell us, about the capabilities of all branches of the Russian military, except their nuclear operation. We know that no Russian tank can resist our Javelins and similar smart AT weapons. We know their thinking is locked in the 20th century when they spend great effort building Maginot lines in the age of drones, smart bombs and asymmetrical warfare. We know that even by WWII standards, their logistics and
supply
chains are terrible. We wait to try our weapons on the T-14 Armata, MBT, and may soon be able to blow them up too, I expect. The Russian air force and navy have failed and lay low cowering. That’s a fantastic deal for the US and the rest of NATO: priceless knowledge and benefits that cost only money. Who cares... we’ll make more.
Nice touch to blame Russian recruits’ cell phone use for the latest Ukraine hit. Yeah, right. If a cellphone signal is all it took to prompt a HIMARS attack, Russians would be using battalions of phone relays in deep forests mimicking the signature of troop concentrations, to confuse the enemy. I am 99.9% sure we provided targeting information. We had eyes on the actual troops all the time, as we are studying every move Russians make. It may take hours or days to process the images and assign a tactical value, but large concentrations of troops and ammo take days or weeks probably to gather, dig in and camouflage.
We have constant clear eyes over the whole theater, I believe. No way we would be sending Patriots, unless we had the ability to discern the kind of incoming munitions far from their target, and decide whether the attack warrants shooting a missile worth several million dollars. Otherwise, Putin has a very easy way to deplete Ukrainian Patriot missiles with cheap countermeasures posing as ballistic missiles. We know what flies and what moves as if we had Superman’s eyes in the sky... think of what supersecret military satellites can see in the age of the Webb Telescope... , which sees through light years of galactic gas clumps in frequencies human beings happen to radiate.
The thought crossed of what Hannibal did to bumbling idiots. Trebia, Trasimeno, etc., however, Russia has no incipient Scipio in sight. Big battles lie ahead, especially if Crimea is besieged.
The Russian army is not like the Soviet army, though, the Soviet army had Ukrainians in it.
2023... unbelievable, isn’t it?
Cheers
If Tsar Vladimir was behind the various assassinations in the West of
Russian dissidents (polonium?), it beggars all belief why he didn't
apply the same tactics to the various leaders in Ukraine before
invading.

After all, the requirements for war are:
1/ Hardware
2/ Espionage
3/ Faux diplomacy
4/ Obfuscation

Understandably the USA wants to test its latest military hardware, but
it's punching the tar-baby yet again, squandering billions of dollars
as usual. Better give Ukraine back to
Russia and end all the bullshit! Metternich & Tallyrand would have
had it all fixed within 6 months!
Tiglath
2023-01-23 08:12:35 UTC
Permalink
This war has become extremely revealing of weaknesses in the participants. The myth of Russian might died a convulsive death regardless of Putin's brilliant bluffing.

Less pleasing is how NATO shows the weaknesses of fighting a war by committee. A strong leader would solve that problem, but he or she is not to be found. It falls on Biden as president of a superpower to lead by example how to defend democracy against the dictator of our times, but he is too timid. Biden's timidity will only increase now that he got his knickers in a twist at home: why make things worse by irritating Putin, who will cry wolf again with great effect. What a disgrace! Zero balls. Europe even worse, since this war is so evidently a just war and right under their noses.

They can't even rectify NATO's strategic mistake of letting Putin take so much ground in his summer offensive last year. Ukraine needed the HIMARS then. It's always a day late and a dollar short with Biden. Certain things in life require full attention: war, sex, etc. You can certainly do these things and read a book at the same time, but... not recommended. Letting the war go on just makes it a BIGGER, pending problem.
Peter Jason
2023-01-23 20:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tiglath
This war has become extremely revealing of weaknesses in the participants.
The myth of Russian might died a convulsive death regardless of Putin's brilliant bluffing.
fer Chrissake, the war is a brawl between Putin and that oligarch in
Ukraine.
Russia wants and needs the black earth of Ukraine, so give it up. The
Ukraine is Russia's "Alsace & Lorraine", Russia's "Monroe Doctrine".

Germany's Tiger Tanks will only prolong the brawl.

Hurry, before China gets involved.
The Horny Goat
2023-01-25 00:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Tiglath
This war has become extremely revealing of weaknesses in the participants.
The myth of Russian might died a convulsive death regardless of Putin's brilliant bluffing.
fer Chrissake, the war is a brawl between Putin and that oligarch in
Ukraine.
Russia wants and needs the black earth of Ukraine, so give it up. The
Ukraine is Russia's "Alsace & Lorraine", Russia's "Monroe Doctrine".
Germany's Tiger Tanks will only prolong the brawl.
Hurry, before China gets involved.
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?

As for Alsace / Lorraine that's an area that has been primarily French
or Burgundian held for most of the last 500 years but occasionally
French. Whereas Ukraine was largely independent until conquered by
Russia. And unlike Alsace / Lorraine it DOESN'T speak the same
language as Germany (or Russia) nor has a record of deliberate
starvation by the Imperial power. (And yes I am describing Stalin's
USSR as imperialist at least where Ukraine is concerned).

As for the Monroe doctrine, that's a US policy barring European states
acquiring colonies in the New World - NOT a policy of annexation by
the United States. So no I think your comparison of Russia/Ukraine to
the Monroe Doctrine is not appropriate since at no point does the
Monroe doctrine advocate US acquisition of territory.
Peter Jason
2023-01-25 02:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for Alsace / Lorraine that's an area that has been primarily French
or Burgundian held for most of the last 500 years but occasionally
French. Whereas Ukraine was largely independent until conquered by
Russia. And unlike Alsace / Lorraine it DOESN'T speak the same
language as Germany (or Russia) nor has a record of deliberate
starvation by the Imperial power. (And yes I am describing Stalin's
USSR as imperialist at least where Ukraine is concerned).
Being on the interface of the Holy Roman Empire and France it tended
to swing both ways.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for the Monroe doctrine, that's a US policy barring European states
acquiring colonies in the New World - NOT a policy of annexation by
the United States. So no I think your comparison of Russia/Ukraine to
the Monroe Doctrine is not appropriate since at no point does the
Monroe doctrine advocate US acquisition of territory.
History never repeats exactly. The Monroe doctrine was to keep the
Europeans out of the USA's "sphere of influence" and there may have
been Mexican politics. Putin probably feared Ukraine joining NATO.
Of course the Ukraine has all that vast agricultural wealth and a
relatively mild climate for the area.
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
a425couple
2023-01-26 14:55:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for Alsace / Lorraine that's an area that has been primarily French
or Burgundian held for most of the last 500 years but occasionally
French. Whereas Ukraine was largely independent until conquered by
Russia. And unlike Alsace / Lorraine it DOESN'T speak the same
language as Germany (or Russia) nor has a record of deliberate
starvation by the Imperial power. (And yes I am describing Stalin's
USSR as imperialist at least where Ukraine is concerned).
Being on the interface of the Holy Roman Empire and France it tended
to swing both ways.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for the Monroe doctrine, that's a US policy barring European states
acquiring colonies in the New World - NOT a policy of annexation by
the United States. So no I think your comparison of Russia/Ukraine to
the Monroe Doctrine is not appropriate since at no point does the
Monroe doctrine advocate US acquisition of territory.
History never repeats exactly. The Monroe doctrine was to keep the
Europeans out of the USA's "sphere of influence" and there may have
been Mexican politics. Putin probably feared Ukraine joining NATO.
Of course the Ukraine has all that vast agricultural wealth and a
relatively mild climate for the area.
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
The Horny Goat
2023-01-26 17:40:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
While I agree with you understand that you are advocating a very
dangerous policy since you are clearly advocating regime change.
a425couple
2023-01-26 19:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
While I agree with you understand that you are advocating a very
dangerous policy since you are clearly advocating regime change.
I am not sure about that.

Although Putin would have to 'dance' very carefully,
it seems to me indeed possible for him to withdraw
from this war of aggression and still remain in power.

(I am sorry, while posting while on vacation,
I am lacking,, among other things, a spell check,
so you all can see some of my limitations!
Sorry -- deal with it.)

I recall that Saddam Hussein was very firmly and rudely
kicked out of Kuwait with his military very roughed
up and abused. Yet he surprised all by staying
very firmly in power.

And also, Putin is 70 years of age. Perhaps there is
some truth to all the rumors about his health deteriorating,
or not, but change might happen in any event.
a425couple
2023-01-26 19:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
While I agree with you understand that you are advocating a very
dangerous policy since you are clearly advocating regime change.
I am not sure about that.
Although Putin would have to 'dance' very carefully,
it seems to me indeed possible for him to withdraw
from this war of aggression and still remain in power.
(I am sorry, while posting while on vacation,
I am lacking,, among other things, a spell check,
so you all can see some of my limitations!
Sorry -- deal with it.)
I recall that Saddam Hussein was very firmly and rudely
kicked out of Kuwait with his military very roughed
up and abused.  Yet he surprised all by staying
very firmly in power.
And also, Putin is 70 years of age.  Perhaps there is
some truth to all the rumors about his health deteriorating,
or not, but change might happen in any event.
And then, there is this,
https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-kremlin-aide-abbas-gallyamov-predicts-military-soup-against-putin


DAILY BEAST
SUBSCRIBE
CHEAT SHEET
NEWSLETTERS

Putin’s Former Speechwriter Predicts Military Coup in Russia
‘SECOND-RATE DICTATOR’
“Anger at the authorities allowing a criminal to walk all over them is
growing stronger.”


Allison Quinn
News Editor
Updated Jan. 26, 2023 1:14PM ET Published Jan. 26, 2023 9:40AM ET

Contributor#8523328
A former Kremlin aide is warning that as Moscow blindly pursues its
bloody conquest in Ukraine, the situation at home is quietly heading
towards a military coup.

Abbas Gallyamov, Vladimir Putin’s former speechwriter, says the
conditions are already there for a full revolt.

“The longer the war drags on, the clearer its pointlessness becomes,”
Gallyamov writes in a new column for opposition media outlet Mozhem
Obyasnit.

The Russian public has largely begun to realize that the Kremlin’s dream
of toppling the Kyiv “regime” is not going to happen, Gallyamov notes,
and the consolation prize of new “Russian” territories is not winning
anybody over.

Discord is also growing in the military, he argues, where “[Wagner boss
Yevgeny] Prigozhin has completely discredited the regime in the eyes of
service members with his rhetoric, and anger at the authorities allowing
a criminal to walk all over them is growing stronger.”

Putin’s Chef Threatens Traitors With ‘Sledgehammer’
‘CRIMINAL TALENTS’
Allison Quinn

Putin’s cunning, “macho” image has also disintegrated, Gallyamov writes:
“As problems pile up in the country and the army that the authorities
are unable to solve, Putin is more steadily transforming in people’s
eyes from a great strategist to an ordinary, second-rate dictator.”

After months of widespread reports on Russian troops rebelling against
their commanders, going public with complaints about top military brass,
or deserting the war altogether, Gallyamov notes that all it takes to
light the fuse of a full military coup is a little more organization.

“It must be understood that the vast majority of commanders in the army
of an authoritarian nation are not staunch supporters of the
authorities, but run-of-the-mill opportunists,” he argues.

So once a revolt begins and “yesterday’s loyalties” vanish, military
commanders will fight for whoever seems most likely to win, according to
Gallyamov. “If complaints against authorities seem convincing to [a
commander], then he will most likely decide that that [regime] will not
stand against a wave of public anger. And if that’s the case, there’s no
reason not to join.”

In addition to the myriad reports about troops revolting against and in
some cases even attacking their own commanders, thousands more Russian
soldiers have voluntarily handed themselves over to Ukrainian
authorities to avoid taking part in the war.

A representative for a Ukrainian hotline called “I Want to Live” told
The Guardian on Thursday that a total of 6,543 Russian troops had called
up seeking to surrender to the Ukrainian government in a span of about
four months.

“During the liberation of Kherson, we had calls from Russians and they
told us, ‘Just save our souls because we got stuck somewhere in the mud,
our battalion is totally crushed, we have 10 soldiers left, please take
us from this mess,” Vitali Matvienko was quoted saying.

He did not say how many of those phone calls led to completed surrenders.

While Russian troops had once bragged about what they were sure would be
a lightning-fast takeover of Ukraine, ordinary Russian citizens are now
instead seeing a steady drip of death at home, with billboards going up
advertising funeral services for “Cargo 200,” a military term for those
killed in action.

Incidentally, Russia’s funeral services industry may be one of the only
sectors of the economy to hit the jackpot in the war, even as other
industries suffer from international sanctions.

The Insider reports that the industry is blowing up at a record pace and
crematoriums are “growing exponentially.”

The owner of a crematorium in Novosibirsk told the outlet there’s so
much demand he’s planning to open a whole new military section in the
spring.

“Everything will be in the military style, we’ll even set up a cannon,”
he said, adding that manufacturers had also begun offering camouflage
coffins and “a lot of military paraphernalia.”

Although they may not prove that popular. “Apparently for the relatives
it has bad associations,” he said.
Peter Jason
2023-01-26 20:16:54 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for Alsace / Lorraine that's an area that has been primarily French
or Burgundian held for most of the last 500 years but occasionally
French. Whereas Ukraine was largely independent until conquered by
Russia. And unlike Alsace / Lorraine it DOESN'T speak the same
language as Germany (or Russia) nor has a record of deliberate
starvation by the Imperial power. (And yes I am describing Stalin's
USSR as imperialist at least where Ukraine is concerned).
Being on the interface of the Holy Roman Empire and France it tended
to swing both ways.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for the Monroe doctrine, that's a US policy barring European states
acquiring colonies in the New World - NOT a policy of annexation by
the United States. So no I think your comparison of Russia/Ukraine to
the Monroe Doctrine is not appropriate since at no point does the
Monroe doctrine advocate US acquisition of territory.
History never repeats exactly. The Monroe doctrine was to keep the
Europeans out of the USA's "sphere of influence" and there may have
been Mexican politics. Putin probably feared Ukraine joining NATO.
Of course the Ukraine has all that vast agricultural wealth and a
relatively mild climate for the area.
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
....uh, like the latest push into the West Bank by the Zionists?

The Crimean war was about Russian expansion into Constantinople, the
Levant then possibly much more of the Ottoman Empire. The death of
Nicholas I broke the stalemate and peace broke out with the Treaty of
Paris. Something similar might happen today when/if Putin departs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1856)

The problem of Ukraine remains as an irritant to Russia because of its
vast agricultural wealth, its size and its Western leanings. Perhaps
history might lend an idea with the concept of Feudal overlordship...
that is partial independence.

And...wasn't this war meant to be all about fancy smart American
missiles finding their targets in mid-flight? It now seems to be a
Kursk-type tank brawl.
a425couple
2023-01-27 14:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for Alsace / Lorraine that's an area that has been primarily French
or Burgundian held for most of the last 500 years but occasionally
French. Whereas Ukraine was largely independent until conquered by
Russia. And unlike Alsace / Lorraine it DOESN'T speak the same
language as Germany (or Russia) nor has a record of deliberate
starvation by the Imperial power. (And yes I am describing Stalin's
USSR as imperialist at least where Ukraine is concerned).
Being on the interface of the Holy Roman Empire and France it tended
to swing both ways.
Post by The Horny Goat
As for the Monroe doctrine, that's a US policy barring European states
acquiring colonies in the New World - NOT a policy of annexation by
the United States. So no I think your comparison of Russia/Ukraine to
the Monroe Doctrine is not appropriate since at no point does the
Monroe doctrine advocate US acquisition of territory.
History never repeats exactly. The Monroe doctrine was to keep the
Europeans out of the USA's "sphere of influence" and there may have
been Mexican politics. Putin probably feared Ukraine joining NATO.
Of course the Ukraine has all that vast agricultural wealth and a
relatively mild climate for the area.
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
....uh, like the latest push into the West Bank by the Zionists?
How you think that the invasion by Putin's Russia into the
independent and recognized state of Ukraine is in any way
the equivilant of the problems in the Levant is quite beyond
my comprehension.

In 1947 both the Jews and the Palestinians were offered a
United Nations approved plan of each getting about half of
the rather empty area. The Jews accepted it. The Palestinians
refused to acceept that compromise, and every compromise since.
The Palestinians were sure they could kill all the Jews and
dump their bodies in the sea, especially since they had the
help of 5 Arab armies.
They were wrong.
They still refuse to accept any offered compromise.
They continue to choose violence.
74 years of dreadfully bad leadership.
Even Vlad Putin is not that bad a leader.

I believe Harry Truman was right in being a Friend of Zion.
I believe Winston Churchill was right in being a Friend of Zion.
I believe the UN vote was correct.
I also believe Jimmy Carter was right with the Camp David Accords
creating peace between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.
And lately, more and more Islamic governments are finding the
Palestinian leaders impossible and are looking to form better
relations with Israel.
IMHO, the Trump brokered Abraham Accords are a move to the future.
read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords

In 2022 I was in the Levant, and I talked to some Palestinians
who are also very unhappy at their 'leaders' who keep fomenting
trouble and disagreements just to keep themselves in power.
The Horny Goat
2023-01-27 18:49:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:23:24 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
How you think that the invasion by Putin's Russia into the
independent and recognized state of Ukraine is in any way
the equivilant of the problems in the Levant is quite beyond
my comprehension.
I was kind of scratching my head on that one too.
Post by a425couple
In 1947 both the Jews and the Palestinians were offered a
United Nations approved plan of each getting about half of
the rather empty area. The Jews accepted it. The Palestinians
refused to acceept that compromise, and every compromise since.
The Palestinians were sure they could kill all the Jews and
dump their bodies in the sea, especially since they had the
help of 5 Arab armies.
They were wrong.
They still refuse to accept any offered compromise.
They continue to choose violence.
74 years of dreadfully bad leadership.
Even Vlad Putin is not that bad a leader.
Fact is in 1947-48 Stalin was more of a friend to Israel than Truman
or Attlee. A >LOT< of Czech military production (which was under
Stalin's control at the time) went directly to Israel while the US and
Britain dragged their heels. (No question the US + UK were on Israel's
side in 1956 and 1967 but in 1947-48 the British were on the Arab
side)

One MAJOR victory of the Palestinians was to entrench the idea that
the Arab world had no responsibility to resettle them - while Israel
DID absorb Jews expelled from their Arab neighbors - in fact a very
similar number to the Palestinians who went to camps in the West Bank
and Gaza.

No other ethnic group on Earth has maintained "refugee status" for
anything like the 75+ years they have - and there have been lots of
refugee situations since 1947-48. For instance who talks about the
need to resettle the Boat people or Syrians these days? Or the
Hungarians of 1956? Both groups were important in their day (and there
were plenty of others)

(Though I am STILL angry about the case of the Syrian refugee to
Canada who railed against the Canadian government's refusal to admit
her brother's family and that his son had drowned at sea leaving
Syria. The public outrage turned the 2015 Canadian federal election.

Meanwhile further digging by reporters showed that while the father
had picked up the refugee application forms HE HADN'T EVER ACTUALLY
APPLIED TO COME TO CANADA so while I remain sorry his son drowned at
sea, how can the Canadian government of the day be castigated by the
usual suspects for it's "ill treatment" of somebody who had not even
applied? By what reasonable standards is a country responsible for
fair treatment of NON-APPLICANTS?

In short - the Canadian 2015 election was turned by a fraudulent
issue)

At the same time roughly 25% of the Israeli population is Arab.
Post by a425couple
I believe Harry Truman was right in being a Friend of Zion.
I believe Winston Churchill was right in being a Friend of Zion.
I believe the UN vote was correct.
I also believe Jimmy Carter was right with the Camp David Accords
creating peace between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.
And lately, more and more Islamic governments are finding the
Palestinian leaders impossible and are looking to form better
relations with Israel.
IMHO, the Trump brokered Abraham Accords are a move to the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords
In 2022 I was in the Levant, and I talked to some Palestinians
who are also very unhappy at their 'leaders' who keep fomenting
trouble and disagreements just to keep themselves in power.
Again - everywhere else in the world refugees are resettled within 5
years at most. The ONLY reason the Palestinians continue to claim
refugee status is that they are NOT interested in resettlement
elsewhere but only in Israel and their numbers are such that the only
way to achieve that is destruction of the State of Israel which
understandably Israelis of all political stripes are loathe to give.
a425couple
2023-01-28 00:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:23:24 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
How you think that the invasion by Putin's Russia into the
independent and recognized state of Ukraine is in any way
the equivilant of the problems in the Levant is quite beyond
my comprehension.
I was kind of scratching my head on that one too.
Post by a425couple
In 1947 both the Jews and the Palestinians were offered a
United Nations approved plan of each getting about half of
the rather empty area. The Jews accepted it. The Palestinians
refused to acceept that compromise, and every compromise since.
The Palestinians were sure they could kill all the Jews and
dump their bodies in the sea, especially since they had the
help of 5 Arab armies.
They were wrong.
They still refuse to accept any offered compromise.
They continue to choose violence.
74 years of dreadfully bad leadership.
Even Vlad Putin is not that bad a leader.
Fact is in 1947-48 Stalin was more of a friend to Israel than Truman
or Attlee. A >LOT< of Czech military production (which was under
Stalin's control at the time) went directly to Israel while the US and
Britain dragged their heels. (No question the US + UK were on Israel's
side in 1956 and 1967 but in 1947-48 the British were on the Arab
side)
And one version of that story is:

from
https://www.rbth.com/history/327040-ussr-and-israel-from-friends-to-foes


Why did the USSR help to create Israel, but then became its foe
HISTORY DEC 15 2017OLEG YEGOROV
June 1948: Israeli soldiers travel on route 7 to Jerusalem during the
War of Independence

Getty Images
Follow Russia Beyond on Pinterest

Joseph Stalin strongly supported the creation of Israel in 1947 because
he hoped the Jewish state would be a Soviet ally in the Middle East. But
when things didn’t work out between Moscow and Tel Aviv, the Soviet
Union became hostile and turned into a staunch Arab ally.
In 1947, the situation in the Middle East was very tense, with bombs and
violent clashes every week. Great Britain, which had been administrating
Palestine since 1920, wanted to terminate the mandate and let the
ex-colony go free. Still, it was clear that independence would lead to
more bloodshed and war.

Tensions were rising between Palestine Arabs (1.2 million people, or 65
percent of the population) and Jewish settlers (608,000 people, or 35
percent of the total). Arabs didn’t want a Jewish state in Palestine and
threatened to “throw it into the sea,” if one was created. But the Jews,
who had just suffered the horrors of the Holocaust, were ready to fight
to establish their homeland.

Still, they needed diplomatic and economic support, and one of their
main allies in the Independence War of 1948-1949 (Arabs know it as The
Catastrophe) would be unexpected. Desiring to expand the Soviet sphere
of influence after victory in World War II, Stalin was ready to offer
support to the Jews.

A common goal
Stalin, however, was not keen on promoting Jewish interests in
Palestine. He had already launched several projects to give Soviet Jews
national autonomy within the borders of the USSR, but these initiatives
failed. As for Israel, Stalin was not going to let Soviet Jewish
citizens emigrate there.

Joseph Stalin didn't care much about Jewish people but, pursuing his own
goals, helped them to win their statehood.

Global Look Press
As Leonid Mlechin, a Russian historian and journalist told Ekho Moskvy
radio, “creating a Jewish state in Palestine was a way for Stalin to
push a weakened Great Britain, which he hated, out of the Middle East.”
Since Arab regimes were often pro-British, Stalin preferred to work with
the Zionists.

Previously a Soviet ally in World War II and now a geopolitical rival,
Great Britain was also hated by Jewish settlers. In 1946, Zionist
militants bombed Jerusalem’s King David Hotel, where the British
administration was housed, killing 91 people. Driving out the British
was a goal shared by the Zionists and the USSR, though for different
reasons.

Diplomatic wars
After Great Britain’s mandate was terminated, the Palestinian issue
passed to the United Nations, which had to find a solution. While Great
Britain didn’t support the idea of creating an independent Jewish state,
the two main powers in the post-war order, the USSR and the U.S., opted
for a two-state solution, which in turn was strongly opposed by Arab
states. In November 1947, the issue was voted on during the UN General
Assembly plenary meeting.

Andrei Gromyko, the Permanent Representative of the Soviet Union to the
United Nations, showed strong support for Israel's case.

AFP
Soviet ambassador to the UN, Andrei Gromyko, said during his speech:
“The Jewish people have been connected with Palestine throughout a long
historical period.” This contravened the Arab viewpoint that the
creation of Israel was unjust. The USSR was the first country to
officially recognize Israel, two days after it declared independence on
May 14, 1948.

Socialist guns for Zionists
The U.S., which also supported the creation of Israel, officially banned
weapon supplies to the Middle East. Unlike the Americans, however,
Moscow sent arms to the Zionists, though unofficially and through other
countries, such as Czechoslovakia. The USSR used German weapons captured
at the end of the war.

Israeli infantry making a full assault on Egyptian forces in the Negev
area of Israel during the War of Independence.

Getty Images
Israel got rifles, mortars and even several Messerschmitt fighter planes
from Czechoslovakia, of course, with Soviet permission and consent. This
wasn’t the only source of weapons for the Jewish state. Basically, they
were getting arms from around the world any way possible, but the USSR
definitely played a major role in Israel’s victory in 1948.

End of honeymoon
Stalin’s support for the Israeli cause didn’t last long. As Julius
Kosharovsky, a Russian-born Israeli historian, said in his book on the
Zionist movement in the USSR, bilateral relations deteriorated soon
after Golda Meir, Israel’s envoy to Russia, raised the issue of the
emigration of Soviet Jews to Israel.

Golda Meir takes up her appointment as the first Israel Envoy to the
Soviet Union

AP
The answer was a strict “No.” The official Soviet position was that all
Soviet Jews, like all Soviet people in general, were extremely happy and
didn’t need any Promised Land. Israeli politicians couldn’t accept this,
and they soon turned to the U.S. as their main ally.

Israel’s new alliance with the U.S. had severe consequences in the
coming years and decades. For example, in 1952, 13 members of the
Soviet-based Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee were arrested and executed.
Also, starting in the early 1950s and until the Cold War’s end, the USSR
supported the Arabs in their conflict with Israel.

If using any of Russia Beyond's content, partly or in full, always
provide an active hyperlink to the original material.

JOSEPH STALIN MIDDLE EASTJEWSARAB
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Post by The Horny Goat
One MAJOR victory of the Palestinians was to entrench the idea that
the Arab world had no responsibility to resettle them - while Israel
DID absorb Jews expelled from their Arab neighbors - in fact a very
similar number to the Palestinians who went to camps in the West Bank
and Gaza.
No other ethnic group on Earth has maintained "refugee status" for
anything like the 75+ years they have - and there have been lots of
refugee situations since 1947-48. For instance who talks about the
need to resettle the Boat people or Syrians these days? Or the
Hungarians of 1956? Both groups were important in their day (and there
were plenty of others)
(Though I am STILL angry about the case of the Syrian refugee to
Canada who railed against the Canadian government's refusal to admit
her brother's family and that his son had drowned at sea leaving
Syria. The public outrage turned the 2015 Canadian federal election.
Meanwhile further digging by reporters showed that while the father
had picked up the refugee application forms HE HADN'T EVER ACTUALLY
APPLIED TO COME TO CANADA so while I remain sorry his son drowned at
sea, how can the Canadian government of the day be castigated by the
usual suspects for it's "ill treatment" of somebody who had not even
applied? By what reasonable standards is a country responsible for
fair treatment of NON-APPLICANTS?
In short - the Canadian 2015 election was turned by a fraudulent
issue)
At the same time roughly 25% of the Israeli population is Arab.
Post by a425couple
I believe Harry Truman was right in being a Friend of Zion.
I believe Winston Churchill was right in being a Friend of Zion.
I believe the UN vote was correct.
I also believe Jimmy Carter was right with the Camp David Accords
creating peace between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.
And lately, more and more Islamic governments are finding the
Palestinian leaders impossible and are looking to form better
relations with Israel.
IMHO, the Trump brokered Abraham Accords are a move to the future.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords
In 2022 I was in the Levant, and I talked to some Palestinians
who are also very unhappy at their 'leaders' who keep fomenting
trouble and disagreements just to keep themselves in power.
Again - everywhere else in the world refugees are resettled within 5
years at most. The ONLY reason the Palestinians continue to claim
refugee status is that they are NOT interested in resettlement
elsewhere but only in Israel and their numbers are such that the only
way to achieve that is destruction of the State of Israel which
understandably Israelis of all political stripes are loathe to give.
Peter Jason
2023-01-30 04:13:30 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:46:20 -0800, a425couple
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:23:24 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
How you think that the invasion by Putin's Russia into the
independent and recognized state of Ukraine is in any way
the equivilant of the problems in the Levant is quite beyond
my comprehension.
I was kind of scratching my head on that one too.
I have snipped, mercifully, the history lesson.

Surely the point is that the Zionists muscled into areas where they
were not wanted.
Why?
In the 1800s that area of the Levant was settled by many faiths,
including Jews, under the Ottomans and later the British.
Discounting the occasional bloody brawls between Xtian sects that
system worked.
Rather like the Raj, which worked until Gandhi & Jinna achieved
independence and the slaughter that followed.

I don't suppose the Israelis might pull up stakes and move to
Patagonia, where there's land aplenty? Argentina might flog it off
for a peppercorn.
Ed Stasiak
2023-01-28 14:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
a425couple
In 1947 both the Jews and the Palestinians were offered a
United Nations approved plan of each getting about half of
the rather empty area. The Jews accepted it. The Palestinians
refused to acceept that compromise, and every compromise since.
"Get out, this is my house now."
"What?! No way!"
"The UN says so."
"Well, fuck that!"
"You're a terrorist!"

Yeah, what a deal...
a425couple
2023-01-28 22:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Post by The Horny Goat
a425couple
In 1947 both the Jews and the Palestinians were offered a
United Nations approved plan of each getting about half of
the rather empty area. The Jews accepted it. The Palestinians
refused to acceept that compromise, and every compromise since.
"Get out, this is my house now."
"What?! No way!"
"The UN says so."
"Well, fuck that!"
"You're a terrorist!"
Yeah, what a deal...
Ed, I do not think that "conversation" is correct or accurate.

Plenty of Palestinians remained living in areas that both
#1 were designated to be areas for the Jewish people, and
#2 that ended up controlled by the Israeli people.

Although I will recognize that there were real threats and real
fears caused by words and deeds BY BOTH SIDES.

No partition of people is ever done with neatness and
fairness and good feelings all the way around.
Please read up about the separations and movements
after the Greek and Turkish War, the separation of
India and Pakistain.
The Horny Goat
2023-01-30 07:37:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 14:27:17 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
No partition of people is ever done with neatness and
fairness and good feelings all the way around.
Please read up about the separations and movements
after the Greek and Turkish War, the separation of
India and Pakistain.
Post WW1 Silesia was partitioned with a minimum of bloodshed following
a referendum. No question the Germans were unhappy but this was part
of the Versailles "package" and they weren't in a position to argue.

Similarly parts of Schleswig-Holstein went back and forth between
Denmark and Germany several times again with a minimum of 'muss +
fuss'.

By "Greek-Turkish War I assume you mean 1919-23 which was definitely a
difficult partition and I never truly did understand what Britain
hoped to gain by partitioning India STRICTLY on religion (e.g. why was
East Pakistan attached to West Pakistan? Other than Islam, E Pakistan
had little in common culturally or in any other way with Pakistan and
in my opinion the partition championed by India in 1970 would have
happened eventually even without Indian "help"
a425couple
2023-01-27 14:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
--------------------
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by a425couple
Post by Peter Jason
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
....uh, like the latest push into the West Bank by the Zionists?
Is this what you are referring to?

from
https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/01/israeli-raid-kills-9-islamic-jihad-operatives-planning-attacks-inside-israel/

Israeli Raid Kills 9 Islamic Jihad Operatives Planning Attacks Inside
Israel
IDF: We “dismantled a ticking time bomb.”

Posted by Vijeta Uniyal
Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 01:00pm
9 Comments
Share This StoryFacebookTwitterTelegramGabMeWeRedditEmail

Israel’s security forces eliminated an Islamist terror cell planning to
attack Israeli civilians. Thursday morning, at least nine wanted
operatives of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) terrorist group were
killed in an Israeli counter-terrorism raid in the West Bank town of Jenin.

Israeli military sources describe the terrorist squad as a “ticking time
bomb” which was close to unleashing deadly attacks inside Israel.
“Israeli security forces “dismantled a ticking time bomb” in Thursday
morning’s raid on a terrorist cell planning to carry out an attack on a
civilian target in Israel, a senior Israel Defense Forces (IDF) officer
said,” the Israel TV channel i24news reported. ”

Besides taking heavy fire from the PIJ gunmen, Israeli soldiers entering
Jenin were apparently ambushed by the Palestinian Police. “One of the
Palestinian gunmen killed in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) raid in
Jenin belonged to the Palestinian Civil Police Force, an official body
tasked with cooperating with the Israeli military in counterterrorism
efforts in the West Bank,” the TV channel added.

The Israeli raid comes amid a surge in Palestinian bombings and terror
attacks. In late November, Jerusalem was rocked by two blats during the
early morning rush hour. A 16-year-old boy was killed, and 20 others
were injured by bombs planted by a Palestinian terrorist cell.


The slain terrorists had Israeli blood on their hands. In a joint
statement obtained by Legal Insurrection, the Israeli military (IDF),
the Israel Securities Authority (ISA), and Border Police disclosed that
the “Islamic Jihad terror operatives were heavily involved in executing
and planning multiple major terror attacks, including shooting attacks
on IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians.”


The Jerusalem Post reported the details of the Israeli raid:

As many as nine Palestinians in the Jenin refugee camp on Thursday were
killed in an extended battle with the IDF which was trying to thwart
planned terror attacks as well as to capture at least three known
Islamic Jihad terrorists.

The operation was a joint one involving the Shin Bet (Israel Security
Agency), the IDF and the police.

The IDF said that when it approached the residence where the three
terrorists were known to be hiding out, two of them started running out
of the residence while armed and were killed by IDF forces.

A third wanted terrorist willingly surrendered himself to be arrested,
while a fourth armed Palestinian there attempted to engage Israeli
security forces and was also killed.

IDF anti-explosive experts entered the residence and safely exploded two
bombs that the terrorists had in their possession.

The IDF said that the three wanted terrorists had already participated
in multiple attacks and were planning even more substantial attacks.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad Vow Revenge for Slain Terrorists
Gaza-based Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist groups
pledged to avenge their fellow Islamists eliminated in the latest
Israeli counter-terrorism operation. The Times of Israel reported:

Islamic Jihad spokesman Tariq Salmi vows that “the resistance is
everywhere and ready and willing for the next confrontation,” after nine
Palestinians, including several terrorists linked to the group, were
killed during an IDF raid in Jenin earlier today. (…)

Saleh al-Arouri, deputy leader of Hamas, vows that Israel “will pay the
price for the Jenin massacre.”

“Our resistance will not break, and our response will come soon.”

Israel’s Arab and Muslim neighbors came to the defense of jihadi
terrorists in distress. “Both Egypt and Turkey lob criticism at Israel
after a deadly IDF raid in Jenin that killed nine Palestinians, most of
whom are believed to be members of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror
group,” The Times of Israel noted in a separate report.
Peter Jason
2023-01-30 04:19:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:35:55 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 06:55:56 -0800, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
--------------------
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by a425couple
Post by Peter Jason
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
Yes, in this case Putin's "actions are understandable".
But very contrary to a people's right to self determination
and prior agreements and treaties.
He was clearly warned to not invade.
He said he was not going to invade.
He / Russia invaded an independant state.
They are showing great national resolve in resisting the invasion.
Now, he needs to be beaten back so he & Russia totally lose
from this offensive war.
....uh, like the latest push into the West Bank by the Zionists?
Is this what you are referring to?
from
https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/01/israeli-raid-kills-9-islamic-jihad-operatives-planning-attacks-inside-israel/
Israeli Raid Kills 9 Islamic Jihad Operatives Planning Attacks Inside
Israel
No doubt the Jihadist think of themselves as guerillas.

Didn't Machiavelli say something about states conquered with ease, but
held with great difficulty? It's in "The Prince".

You can hold that territory with help from other sympathetic
countries, but you will wade through blood to keep it.

Have the Israelis ever thought of intermarrying with the Arabs? That
is the Final Solution!
The Horny Goat
2023-01-27 18:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
The problem of Ukraine remains as an irritant to Russia because of its
vast agricultural wealth, its size and its Western leanings. Perhaps
history might lend an idea with the concept of Feudal overlordship...
that is partial independence.
And...wasn't this war meant to be all about fancy smart American
missiles finding their targets in mid-flight? It now seems to be a
Kursk-type tank brawl.
Fact is Ukraine really WASN'T "Western leaning" before Stalin's
misdeeds in the 1930s. I don't know how you could read Tarashenko even
in translation and reach that conclusion.

I don't like the term "Holodomor" since it echoes "The Holocaust"
which isn't a fair comparison since that era was about Stalin wasn't
specifically going after Ukrainians but rather to establish Soviet
control of agriculture generally - which of course was centered on
Ukraine. Let us not forget that something like 20-25% of the Ukrainian
population DIED 1932-35 and in some oblasts over 50% - that's going to
create a few grudges.

Stalin justified it in the name of centralizing power (which he felt
was needed to bolster industrial capacity in case of war which after
1933 couldn't ever have been "off his radar") and ANYBODY who opposed
him was in his sights.

Though no question there was considerable Ukrainian nationalism during
the Civil war era - roughly 1918 - 1924 as well.
The Horny Goat
2023-01-26 17:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Since when is Zelenskii owner of Oligarchic type wealth?
Since 1991 the Ukrainian leaders were/are notorious for looting. I
read this somewhere.
Fair enough but you never heard of Ukrainian leaders reaching anything
like the multi-billionaires of Putin's cronies. If you have
information concerning Zelenskii himself I'd like to see it since the
fact that he WASN'T that way was a key factor in his initial election.
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
As for Alsace / Lorraine that's an area that has been primarily French
or Burgundian held for most of the last 500 years but occasionally
French. Whereas Ukraine was largely independent until conquered by
Russia. And unlike Alsace / Lorraine it DOESN'T speak the same
language as Germany (or Russia) nor has a record of deliberate
starvation by the Imperial power. (And yes I am describing Stalin's
USSR as imperialist at least where Ukraine is concerned).
Being on the interface of the Holy Roman Empire and France it tended
to swing both ways.
The HRE was pretty much of historical interest by the French
Revolution and by THAT era Alsace + Lorraine really DIDN'T go 'back
and forth' except for 1871-1918. (And 1940-45 though the only way was
Germany was keeping them then was an overall Third Reich victory
including crushing both the Soviet Union and UK)
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
As for the Monroe doctrine, that's a US policy barring European states
acquiring colonies in the New World - NOT a policy of annexation by
the United States. So no I think your comparison of Russia/Ukraine to
the Monroe Doctrine is not appropriate since at no point does the
Monroe doctrine advocate US acquisition of territory.
History never repeats exactly. The Monroe doctrine was to keep the
Europeans out of the USA's "sphere of influence" and there may have
been Mexican politics. Putin probably feared Ukraine joining NATO.
Of course the Ukraine has all that vast agricultural wealth and a
relatively mild climate for the area.
Of course history never repeats exactly but what was different was
that at least in the New World, the US was after influence not
physical occupation. Most US annexations involves Pacific islands with
the Phillipines being by far the largest population - in 1941 Manila
was the 6th biggest city in a US state or territory and the
Phillipines (a territory) was more populous than all but the top 2 or
3 states. But pure US imperialism in the European mold didn't exist on
the North and South American continents unless you count Alaska and
the Panama Canal Zone.

Many of the US possessions were acquired from European powers - the
Danish / US Virgin Islands being a notable case. Ditto Alaska which in
1867 was considered far more remote than the USVI.
Post by Peter Jason
Putin is a bad boy, but his actions are understandable.
Tiglath
2023-02-28 07:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Any appearance that NATO is doing a good job in Ukraine is mere reflection of Russia's ineptitude surpassing theirs by orders of magnitude.

Coming later this year, the Crimean War. Will Crimea be this century's Sarajevo?

NO.

Strategists don't know either how this will turn out, since Putin has the option to end humanity. Or so it seems.
That's how NATO justifies the insufficiently aggressive way they provide aid.
True, we don't know what Pootin will ultimately do. But there is much that we do know to give us a clue.

As the ordinary dictator he is, his life is a game is corruption and large scale grift. Watch Navalny's videos on "Putin's Palace" to understand what this man is. He is a Trump, rotten to the core, but a smart Trump and an infinitely more successful Trump than the real one, at grand grift and at real state too. Pootin owns a chunk of primo land where you could fit Monaco forty times. It has its own no-fly zone. It's Pootin's Palace. Top Russian officials and oligarchs are the same mafia, composed of Putin's schoolmates, friends, and cronies. This cancer of Russia's government, who got rich by taking bribes for export licenses at the mayor's office in St. Petersburg, like most dictators wants luxury and riches and power more than anything, so he and his friends rob Russia blind. That is, mafiosi as statesmen. These are not heroic, altruistic or high-minded people, able to envision personal sacrifice: never. But most of all, what this gang doesn't want to do is: THEY DON'T WANT TO DIE. And a fiery death is exactly what would happen to them in NATO's response to a direct nuclear attack.

They know it, and they know that we know it. It's MAD. It seems to work on dictators. It would not work so well on Jihadists, I reckon, because they are suicidal by definition, but not Vladimir, not Pootin. That's one clue. We have a recent example of what dictators do when defeated. Saddam Hussein surrendered peacefully even when he was armed. He said he was ready to negotiate. He didn't want to die.

The way Pootin keeps bluffing and nothing happens when NATO is not deterred, shows how much he really wants to use nukes. And were he to issue such order, there is a chain of people who would realize what was about to happen and would make phone calls; so and I am not quite sure the order to start WWIII would be carried out, if Russia proper was not being attacked.

It's not a coin toss any more. Dictators of Pootin's ilk are not suicidal, and thinking he might be leads to paralysis that does nothing but prolong a winnable war. Caution is due, but not timidity. To take worthwhile risks is why God gave us courage and testosterone. So Joe, buy, beg, borrow some of that... caramba.

Remember Yom Kippur, America. You can do it.

Instead, Biden dithers. Aid is inadequate in time and scale to win. He lies. Democracy is not making gains around the world. Autocracy is. And Biden averts his eyes from most conflicts where democracy is being mangled, when not complicit, as with the West Bank.

Biden is infinitely better than the piece of crap that came before and he means well, but that does not make him right or his policies effective.

In Ukraine Biden is a day late and a dollar short. Like Obama, he is overly cautious. His excessive concern that supplying the best weaponry and air defenses to Kyiv could provoke Pootin has resulted in vast, avoidable destruction in Ukraine.

You'd think now is the time for Russia to pull up its socks and begin to punch through Ukrainians lines, BEFORE they get the good tanks and long-range missiles. Not next month, now. Instead, they just drive hundreds of scared mobiks into the teeth of Ukrainian lines, wave after wave - no ability to learn, apparently. If they miss this opportunity, Russia deserves to lose in an even worse way. Such a highly militarized society performing so poorly in the battlefield is a shock Russians have coming.

The plan with the best odds for Russia to win is for Russia to join NATO and get the good tanks and fighters, etc.

Faites vos jeux, monsieurs.

Not all is well at home, however. Nope. Today the de-facto Speaker of the House, that greene thing, i.e., the most punchable face in Congress, no less, goes and votes against mourning earthquake victims. No wonder she is so disliked in the pro-life party. Talk about picking wrong horses. She is not bright. Cut oxygen off white trash like that.
Ed Stasiak
2023-03-03 07:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Tiglath
Instead, Biden dithers. Aid is inadequate in time and scale to win. He lies.
Biden isn't lying, at least not knowingly, the guy is straight-up senile and simply says
what his nurses tell him to say.

But I was listening to NPR earlier in the week and they said the Biden administration
was imposing some more sanctions on Russia and I was wondering why EVERYTHING
hadn't been sanctioned already?

Of course the answer is Wall Street doesn't want these sanctions as they cut into their
profit margins, so the West implements them in dribs & drabs which allows Putin to find
other sources of trade and income.

Rightwing talk radio mentioned that the Russian economy has only declined by 2% or so
and the value of the ruble is at pre-war levels.

Meanwhile, Ukrainians are dying in a WWI-style war of attrition.
Biden is infinitely better than the piece of crap that came before
And yet Russia didn't invade Ukraine when Trump was President, despite Putin supposedly
being such a good buddy of his...
Tiglath
2023-03-15 07:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Stasiak
Tiglath
Instead, Biden dithers. Aid is inadequate in time and scale to win. He lies.
Biden isn't lying, at least not knowingly, the guy is straight-up senile and simply says
what his nurses tell him to say.
But I was listening to NPR earlier in the week and they said the Biden administration
was imposing some more sanctions on Russia and I was wondering why EVERYTHING
hadn't been sanctioned already?
Of course the answer is Wall Street doesn't want these sanctions as they cut into their
profit margins, so the West implements them in dribs & drabs which allows Putin to find
other sources of trade and income.
Rightwing talk radio mentioned that the Russian economy has only declined by 2% or so
and the value of the ruble is at pre-war levels.
Meanwhile, Ukrainians are dying in a WWI-style war of attrition.
Biden is infinitely better than the piece of crap that came before
And yet Russia didn't invade Ukraine when Trump was President, despite Putin supposedly
being such a good buddy of his...
It's amazing that you are still defending this crooked piece of garbage. I couldn't believe it in 2016, but in 2023 it is unfuckingbelievable.

Most common excuse.... "I like his policies."

Who would be the ideal politician for you? Cincinnatus? Washington? Would it resemble a capable citizen putting his private affairs on hold to go serve his country, and they relinquish power at the end of his term, after a job well done?

If we took such a model, how does Trump compare to it? Does Trump serve anyone but himself?
And so on and so forth, Socratically.

You watch too much Fox News. Is that it? They ARE fake news. THEY SAY SO. If you watch Fox News you base your beliefs on what they state, and I fear that might be your only guide to action. It is you only guide to posting, I see.

If you eat garbage you get a grotesque gut, if you put garbage in your head you hold grotesque beliefs, and then some go and act on them.... When too many do that we have a very unhappy society...
,
Fox News lied for Trump to millions of Americans for billions of dollars from the high ratings.
Fox News now does a U-turn and confesses to lying, to save paying billions the voting machine industry for defamation.
They go either way for MONEY, and you think they are out to inform you.... hilarious.
They also think their audiences are stupid, and saying what they want to hear (which they qualify privately as 'insane') will keep them captured - slaves to the FAKES NEWS.

All these years calling rival media outlet fake, and now there are affidavits from Murdock himself saying Fox News are FAKE NEWS. It's OFFICIAL.

That must be the source of all your Biden mocking and ageism.

Not having been brought up in the US, I realize I lack the trait many have of having been born in a family loyal to a political party, traditionally. So, I don't get what's so good about all this party above country, and the attitude like yours or Hines' of never saying anything good about a president from the other party and never saying anything bad about presidents of your party, especially Trump. That gross bias removes all credibility going forward.

Russia didn't invade Ukraine according to which president we had. To suggest they did is baseless.
He didn't invade as soon as Biden took office, either. So I don't see the correlation. Putin attacked when he was ready, or so he thought, and he may well be regretting not to have attempted before being ready, since with Trump in power, it could have been another Crimea cake walk. Too late.

Sanctions are necessary because adds a thorn on the enemy's side, even if it doesn't defeat it, but they are slow and plagued by leaks and evasions with a black market eager to help. That's how it is, for ALL presidents. Too many people are making predictions about the sanctions that we have never seen happen. We just don't have the kind of control sanctions imply. Besides, any strategy based on expecting to out-suffer Russians will likely fail. The solution is in the battlefield; lost battles have immediate repercussions in Moscow; and only so many can be sustained.
Tiglath
2023-03-19 19:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tiglath
Post by Ed Stasiak
Tiglath
Instead, Biden dithers. Aid is inadequate in time and scale to win. He lies.
Biden isn't lying, at least not knowingly, the guy is straight-up senile and simply says
what his nurses tell him to say.
But I was listening to NPR earlier in the week and they said the Biden administration
was imposing some more sanctions on Russia and I was wondering why EVERYTHING
hadn't been sanctioned already?
Of course the answer is Wall Street doesn't want these sanctions as they cut into their
profit margins, so the West implements them in dribs & drabs which allows Putin to find
other sources of trade and income.
Rightwing talk radio mentioned that the Russian economy has only declined by 2% or so
and the value of the ruble is at pre-war levels.
Meanwhile, Ukrainians are dying in a WWI-style war of attrition.
Biden is infinitely better than the piece of crap that came before
And yet Russia didn't invade Ukraine when Trump was President, despite Putin supposedly
being such a good buddy of his...
It's amazing that you are still defending this crooked piece of garbage. I couldn't believe it in 2016, but in 2023 it is unfuckingbelievable.
Most common excuse.... "I like his policies."
Who would be the ideal politician for you? Cincinnatus? Washington? Would it resemble a capable citizen putting his private affairs on hold to go serve his country, and they relinquish power at the end of his term, after a job well done?
If we took such a model, how does Trump compare to it? Does Trump serve anyone but himself?
And so on and so forth, Socratically.
You watch too much Fox News. Is that it? They ARE fake news. THEY SAY SO. If you watch Fox News you base your beliefs on what they state, and I fear that might be your only guide to action. It is you only guide to posting, I see.
If you eat garbage you get a grotesque gut, if you put garbage in your head you hold grotesque beliefs, and then some go and act on them.... When too many do that we have a very unhappy society...
,
Fox News lied for Trump to millions of Americans for billions of dollars from the high ratings.
Fox News now does a U-turn and confesses to lying, to save paying billions the voting machine industry for defamation.
They go either way for MONEY, and you think they are out to inform you.... hilarious.
They also think their audiences are stupid, and saying what they want to hear (which they qualify privately as 'insane') will keep them captured - slaves to the FAKES NEWS.
All these years calling rival media outlet fake, and now there are affidavits from Murdock himself saying Fox News are FAKE NEWS. It's OFFICIAL.
That must be the source of all your Biden mocking and ageism.
Not having been brought up in the US, I realize I lack the trait many have of having been born in a family loyal to a political party, traditionally. So, I don't get what's so good about all this party above country, and the attitude like yours or Hines' of never saying anything good about a president from the other party and never saying anything bad about presidents of your party, especially Trump. That gross bias removes all credibility going forward.
Russia didn't invade Ukraine according to which president we had. To suggest they did is baseless.
He didn't invade as soon as Biden took office, either. So I don't see the correlation. Putin attacked when he was ready, or so he thought, and he may well be regretting not to have attempted before being ready, since with Trump in power, it could have been another Crimea cake walk. Too late.
Sanctions are necessary because adds a thorn on the enemy's side, even if it doesn't defeat it, but they are slow and plagued by leaks and evasions with a black market eager to help. That's how it is, for ALL presidents. Too many people are making predictions about the sanctions that we have never seen happen. We just don't have the kind of control sanctions imply. Besides, any strategy based on expecting to out-suffer Russians will likely fail. The solution is in the battlefield; lost battles have immediate repercussions in Moscow; and only so many can be sustained.
Russian TV are now parroting what I told you above:
'Russian dictator Vladimir Putin said that he had decided to launch a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022 rather than earlier because of economic and military factors.

'Speaking on Russian state television on March 19, Putin laid out the reasons why, according to him, Russia didn't go for a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2014, when it invaded Crimea and started a war in the eastern Donbas region.

'Putin claimed that Russia wasn't ready militarily in 2014 for a full-scale war, primarily because it didn't have "hypersonic weapons."'

So NO, the pathetic fat fuck, bottle blond with no brains and no class, a clueless, clownish, orange-faced, jerkoff tub of shit moron you like so much... had nothing to do with Pootin's decision to invade Ukraine again.

But don't let little annoying facts upset the lovely sack of theories you have. As you were.
Tiglath
2023-03-28 02:44:59 UTC
Permalink
I just don't want to process anything with 'Trump' in it, anymore, and succeeding at it. But we cannot always look away.
This loser now predicts that Putin will conquer Ukraine. The old mad-king routine gets noticed less and less, even loyalists. Any of them here, still? Or have the regular Deplorables made amends after this winter of discontent?
After Waco, it's clear that Trump is now irrevocably all in with the seditionists, the conspiracy theorists, the “Trump or death” fanatics, the Vladimir Putin fanboys—the whole appalling lot of them.

Betcha some of you still like him...

Hines? Come on, man. Woke ain't cool, but the GOP is in tatters. I'd cross the floor just to get away from that lot.
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