Discussion:
The Monroe Doctrine.
(too old to reply)
Peter Jason
2022-01-10 20:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Curious.

In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".

Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.

Pot, Kettle, Black!

Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.

The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
The Horny Goat
2022-01-10 23:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
Curious.
In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.
Pot, Kettle, Black!
Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
So Russia is a shining example of a strong incorruptible government?

I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.

Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.

I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
east but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
get not only Ukraine but other countries Putin would rather not have
in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
bellicosity.
Post by Peter Jason
The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
Not sure I know exactly what you mean by that but no question Green is
Washington's favorite color - otherwise Beijing would have had several
ultimatums on foreign policy, foreign trade, interference in other
ccountry's politics, bullying and subversion in the Overseas Chinese
community and their social organizations, massive theft of
intellectual property - just for starters.
SolomonW
2022-01-11 04:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
east
Fear where it is going. There are several states, e.g. the Baltic states.
The other problem is both the UK and the US have given the Ukraine
guarantees, these have not been honored.
Post by The Horny Goat
but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
get not only Ukraine
NATO would never agree unless Ukraine gave up Crimea and settled Donbas. I
am not sure what the Ukraine would think of that. Then the next question I
doubt NATO wants to get involved in a mess.
Post by The Horny Goat
but other countries Putin would rather not have
in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
bellicosity.
Sweden's military is minor, so not much of a gain for NATO, Finland is
significant.
The Horny Goat
2022-01-11 19:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by SolomonW
Post by The Horny Goat
I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
east
Fear where it is going. There are several states, e.g. the Baltic states.
The other problem is both the UK and the US have given the Ukraine
guarantees, these have not been honored.
Estonia has seen a large scale cyber-attack coming from Russia.
Obviously in such cases the extent to there is state sponsorship of
such activities is unclear which is presumably why they thought they
could get away with it. In Putin's world this is called "sending a
message"
Post by SolomonW
Post by The Horny Goat
but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
get not only Ukraine
NATO would never agree unless Ukraine gave up Crimea and settled Donbas. I
am not sure what the Ukraine would think of that. Then the next question I
doubt NATO wants to get involved in a mess.
This of course is the reason it has not already happened.

It would take a mindnumbing level of stupidity on Putin's part to make
NATO think allowing Ukraine to join would be a good idea. (Or at least
less bad than other options) Really really mindnumbing. Perhaps I
didn't make it clear that that was my main point.
Post by SolomonW
Post by The Horny Goat
but other countries Putin would rather not have
in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
bellicosity.
Sweden's military is minor, so not much of a gain for NATO, Finland is
significant.
Not to mention that Finland unlike Sweden has quite a long border with
Russia and nobody in the Kremlin wants a repeat of 1939-40.
Mikgmx
2022-01-11 16:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Peter Jason
Curious.
In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
You forgot to mention that the USA had to withdraw their nuclear
missiles from Turkey as price for the Sovjet withdrawal...
OK, USAn patriots tend to leave that small fact out of the big picture.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Peter Jason
Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.
Yes; now let's see what Russia offers (see above).
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Peter Jason
Pot, Kettle, Black!
Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
Someone should mention that the Russians have been de-stabilising the
Ukraine for the past 30 years...
Post by The Horny Goat
So Russia is a shining example of a strong incorruptible government?
Yes, it is. Because nobody can afford to corrupt Putin ;-)
Post by The Horny Goat
I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.
<AOL> Subscirbe!</AOL>
Post by The Horny Goat
Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.
Nope. He has seen that Europe is deeply divided towards Russia.
See last Ukrainian intervention.
Post by The Horny Goat
I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
east but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
get not only Ukraine but other countries Putin would rather not have
in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
bellicosity.
Europe didn't even want to expand the EU farther east (Rumania, Bulgaria
and other failed states). But thanks to US pressure...
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Peter Jason
The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
Until the Chinese present the tab...
Post by The Horny Goat
Not sure I know exactly what you mean by that but no question Green is
Washington's favorite color - otherwise Beijing would have had several
ultimatums on foreign policy, foreign trade, interference in other
ccountry's politics, bullying and subversion in the Overseas Chinese
community and their social organizations, massive theft of
intellectual property - just for starters.
Not to forget impeding the freedom of international waters...

Cheers,
Michael Küttner
The Horny Goat
2022-01-11 19:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mikgmx
Post by Peter Jason
In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
You forgot to mention that the USA had to withdraw their nuclear
missiles from Turkey as price for the Sovjet withdrawal...
OK, USAn patriots tend to leave that small fact out of the big picture.
And you didn't mention that those Turkish missiles were considered
obsolete and scheduled for removal within 2 years Cuba or no Cuba.

Removing them was a convenient fig leaf for Khrushchev - nothing more
- and I personally am convinced that the Cuban Missile Crisis was the
incident that started the cabal that led to his ouster in 1964.
Peter Jason
2022-01-12 01:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Peter Jason
Curious.
In 1962 Kennedy threw a hissy fit when Russians tried to put missiles
into Cuba. And was quick to invoke the "Monroe Doctrine".
Now when Russia does the same, referring to NATO recruitments of
smaller Eastern nations, the USA gets all upset.
Pot, Kettle, Black!
Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
So Russia is a shining example of a strong incorruptible government?
Democracy does not work in all countries. Russia, as usual, has a
Czar, oligarchs (nobles), etc. Such a huge nation with a polyglot of
races will not accept democracy because the losers will always accuse
the winners of cheating!
Post by The Horny Goat
I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.
Nope.
Post by The Horny Goat
Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.
Well, Frederick II (the great) did the same with Silesia. Keep the
army prepared & await that magic opportunity. All that coal in
Silesia, and all that black earth in Ukraine!
Post by The Horny Goat
I don't believe the US or Europe has any desire to expand NATO further
east but they don't like attempted bullying either and the best way to
get not only Ukraine but other countries Putin would rather not have
in NATO (for ex. Sweden and Finland) would be to continue his
bellicosity.
Why would Putin risk it?
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Peter Jason
The USA might be better off attending to its constellation of internal
problems, and also greasing the bearings of all those dollar-printing
machines. Green indeed is America's attention Span!
Not sure I know exactly what you mean by that but no question Green is
Washington's favorite color - otherwise Beijing would have had several
ultimatums on foreign policy, foreign trade, interference in other
ccountry's politics, bullying and subversion in the Overseas Chinese
community and their social organizations, massive theft of
intellectual property - just for starters.
I mean the USA fed the Imperial Dragon from the 1980s onwards, all in
search of cheap labor. Feed the Dear People cheaper prices and
your're sure to get elected. Sadly there were victims and so Trump
got elected.
Repent at leisure!
The Horny Goat
2022-01-12 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Jason
Post by The Horny Goat
Quite apart from anything else Putin is badly misplaying this. All
he's doing by pressuring Ukraine at this point is encouraging Europe
and the US to do precisely what he doesn't want.
Well, Frederick II (the great) did the same with Silesia. Keep the
army prepared & await that magic opportunity. All that coal in
Silesia, and all that black earth in Ukraine!
The differences being that Frederick won his biggest victories when he
was the numerical underdog - still it was in a time where alliances
were far less important than now and everyone expected Austria to win
a decisive victory. As opposed to Russia v. Ukraine now where the two
options are 'Russian major victory' or 'Stalemate' - nobody expects to
see Kiev marching on Moscow.
Ed Stasiak
2022-01-16 15:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Peter Jason
Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
Russia’s entire history has been one of aggression and straight-up conquering
their neighbors.

Fuck ‘em.
Peter Jason
2022-01-16 20:14:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 07:35:21 -0800 (PST), Ed Stasiak
Peter Jason
Ukraine has been notorious for weak corrupt government for the past 30
years, and Russia cannot afford such a situation on its border.
Russia’s entire history has been one of aggression and straight-up conquering
their neighbors.
Fuck ‘em.
The English took the lead with India, America etc. It was then the
done thing.

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