Discussion:
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of progress..."
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g***@gmail.com
2017-06-22 06:27:26 UTC
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a425couple
2017-06-24 03:09:20 UTC
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.

A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ‎Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More
editions

"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."

And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.

Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.

There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
Paul J Gans
2017-06-24 23:04:16 UTC
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.
A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ?Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ?Snippet view - ?More
editions
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."
And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.
Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.
There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
I don't totally agree with this, but it is right enough. But we
should note that in China, India, Africa, etc., there never was
a concept of "progress" until the idea was introduced to them by
Europeans.

This is an aspect of what I sometimes call the "European Miracle"
where a mostly insignificant backwater in world technology and
history suddenly, at the end of the medieval period, went out and
discovered (and colonized) the rest of the world.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
a425couple
2017-06-27 03:09:30 UTC
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.
A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ?Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ?Snippet view - ?More
editions
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."
And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.
Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.
There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
I don't totally agree with this, but it is right enough. But we
should note that in China, India, Africa, etc., there never was
a concept of "progress" until the idea was introduced to them by
Europeans.
This is an aspect of what I sometimes call the "European Miracle"
where a mostly insignificant backwater in world technology and
history suddenly, at the end of the medieval period, went out and
discovered (and colonized) the rest of the world.
Thank you, Mr. Gans.
Last month I got 3 more medieval books.
One is "Life in a Medieval Village" by Frances &
Joseph Gies (Authors).
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Medieval-Village-Frances-Gies/dp/00
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_and_Joseph_Gies

It seemed fairly well regarded.
"The works by Gies and Gies are respected amongst historians
and archeologists, and are on the recommended reading lists
of a number of universities."
Do you have any knowledge, or opinions on it?

I am especially interested if you have doubts about
what they say about the housing, or the diets.
a425couple
2017-06-27 03:30:14 UTC
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Post by Paul J Gans
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.
A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ?Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ?Snippet view - ?More
editions
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."
And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.
Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.
There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
I don't totally agree with this, but it is right enough. But we
should note that in China, India, Africa, etc., there never was
a concept of "progress" until the idea was introduced to them by
Europeans.
This is an aspect of what I sometimes call the "European Miracle"
where a mostly insignificant backwater in world technology and
history suddenly, at the end of the medieval period, went out and
discovered (and colonized) the rest of the world.
Thank you, Mr. Gans.
Last month I got 3 more medieval books.
One is "Life in a Medieval Village" by Frances &
Joseph Gies (Authors).
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Medieval-Village-Frances-Gies/dp/00
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_and_Joseph_Gies
It seemed fairly well regarded.
"The works by Gies and Gies are respected amongst historians
and archeologists, and are on the recommended reading lists
of a number of universities."
Do you have any knowledge, or opinions on it?
I am especially interested if you have doubts about
what they say about the housing, or the diets.
Here is a professional review of that book:
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-11/books/bk-113_1_medieval-life

Nonfiction in Brief
LIFE IN A MEDIEVAL VILLAGE by Frances and Joseph Gies (Harper & Row:
$22.95; 257 pp.)
In this latest installment of the Gies' study of medieval life (their
previous books include "Life in a Medieval Castle" and "Life in a
Medieval City"), the couple focuses on the English village of Elton.
Using histories, material from archives and recent excavations at the
town 70 miles outside of London, they piece together an account of daily
life as it was experienced by a 13th-Century peasant.
Their extremely detailed research takes up in turn food, clothing, farm
tools, marriage customs, prayer, games--in short, all conceivable
threads in the fabric of village life. One stereotype the authors seek
to explode for the lay reader is that an agricultural society is simple.
An extremely complex system of social obligations and legal
entanglements held every man, woman and child in its web, from lord to
the lowest serf.
The simple and logical organization of the material--together with the
lively illustrations taken from manuscript illumination, woodcuts,
tapestry--makes "Life in a Medieval Village" a good general introduction
to the history of this period; unfortunately, the Gies' style is a
little too dry to recommend to teen-agers, who would be an ideal audience.

And here are two reader reviews
4 of 5
By --- on April 2, 2012
Format: Paperback Verified Purchase
"Life in a Medieval Village" offers a tour through basic areas of
academic interest relating to English medieval village life,
particularly in the 1200s, including but by no means limited to farming
methods, the manorial justice system, and the physical structure of
houses. As a point of reference, it primarily focuses on one particular
village--one that today is all but completely vanished, as is sadly the
case with so much from the middle ages. Throughout the text, the authors
offer aexamples translated from various types of records of the era,
too, to illustrate their points. These add another dimension--a human
dimension--to the broader historical details being offered. I learned
new things reading this book. For instance, that there was often a
single communal bakery in a village for the baking of bread. It is not
an exuberant popular history, but there is a charm about this book and
the authors' style. The authors clearly love learning about the middle
ages and desire others to share in their enjoyment. That generosity of
spirit and intent seeps through to the reader.
Comment
|
5.0 out of 5 stars
Fascinating and good for world-building
ByJen G.on May 28, 2017 Format: Kindle Edition
If you're interested in learning more about day-to-day life in the
Middle Ages, this is the book for you. It's written in an engaging
manner and provides tons of well-researched details. This is a great
book for history buffs, but also for anyone interested in
world-building, be it for a novel or for a role playing game, like D&D.
If you enjoy the non-plot-related details in Game of Thrones, you will
like this book.
Paul J Gans
2017-06-27 17:40:16 UTC
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Post by Paul J Gans
Post by a425couple
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.
A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ?Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ?Snippet view - ?More
editions
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."
And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.
Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.
There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
I don't totally agree with this, but it is right enough. But we
should note that in China, India, Africa, etc., there never was
a concept of "progress" until the idea was introduced to them by
Europeans.
This is an aspect of what I sometimes call the "European Miracle"
where a mostly insignificant backwater in world technology and
history suddenly, at the end of the medieval period, went out and
discovered (and colonized) the rest of the world.
Thank you, Mr. Gans.
Last month I got 3 more medieval books.
One is "Life in a Medieval Village" by Frances &
Joseph Gies (Authors).
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Medieval-Village-Frances-Gies/dp/00
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_and_Joseph_Gies
It seemed fairly well regarded.
"The works by Gies and Gies are respected amongst historians
and archeologists, and are on the recommended reading lists
of a number of universities."
Do you have any knowledge, or opinions on it?
I am especially interested if you have doubts about
what they say about the housing, or the diets.
They are good introductions to the subject. I used them when
I taught my course in medieval invention.

It is a complex subject. But I will point out that a famine that
affected a large area was a relatively rare event. Most affected
a small region. Don't forget that it was not easy to move
perishable foods long distances quickly. So you could have famine
in one area and surplus 100 miles away.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
a425couple
2017-06-28 21:12:01 UTC
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Post by Paul J Gans
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Post by Paul J Gans
Post by a425couple
Post by g***@gmail.com
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.
A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ?Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ?Snippet view - ?More
editions
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."
And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.
Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.
There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
I don't totally agree with this, but it is right enough. But we
should note that in China, India, Africa, etc., there never was
a concept of "progress" until the idea was introduced to them by
Europeans.
This is an aspect of what I sometimes call the "European Miracle"
where a mostly insignificant backwater in world technology and
history suddenly, at the end of the medieval period, went out and
discovered (and colonized) the rest of the world.
Thank you, Mr. Gans.
Last month I got 3 more medieval books.
One is "Life in a Medieval Village" by Frances &
Joseph Gies (Authors).
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Medieval-Village-Frances-Gies/dp/00
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_and_Joseph_Gies
It seemed fairly well regarded.
"The works by Gies and Gies are respected amongst historians
and archeologists, and are on the recommended reading lists
of a number of universities."
Do you have any knowledge, or opinions on it?
I am especially interested if you have doubts about
what they say about the housing, or the diets.
They are good introductions to the subject.
Thanks for that.
Post by Paul J Gans
I used them when > I taught my course in medieval invention.
"medieval invention", interesting.
Would it be possible to in a separate thread / Subject
post a syllabus?
The Horny Goat
2017-06-30 02:55:03 UTC
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On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 14:12:01 -0700, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Thanks for that.
Yup - amen
Post by a425couple
Post by Paul J Gans
I used them when > I taught my course in medieval invention.
"medieval invention", interesting.
Would it be possible to in a separate thread / Subject
post a syllabus?
Or even better a reading list? Preferably something most of us have a
realistic shot of obtaining?
Michael Kuettner
2017-06-30 21:22:40 UTC
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Post by Paul J Gans
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Post by g***@gmail.com
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OK, 1000 to 1300 ~.
A History of the Modern World - Volume 2 - Page 22
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0394320409
Robert Roswell Palmer, ?Joel G. Colton - 1994 - ?Snippet view - ?More
editions
I weep for the trees which were cut down for this "historiography" ...
Post by Paul J Gans
Post by a425couple
"The people of the High Middle Ages did not develop the conception of
progress, because their minds were set upon timeless values and personal
salvation in another world, but the period was nevertheless one of rapid
progress in ..."
Oh. I've always thought that "Immaculate conception" was well known ...
And this rather stupid sentence simply says :
They didn't have some overpaid drones who invented terms like "progress",
they simply did it.
Wow, what an insight (not) !
Post by Paul J Gans
Post by a425couple
And that is why they needed the Renaissance, the Voyages of Discovery,
Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformation, Calvinism, the Protestant
Work Ethic, Capitalism, increased trade, and corporations.
And all those things were dropped on them by Martians. Yeah, right.
Post by Paul J Gans
Post by a425couple
Otherwise they were mostly content to sit on the dirt floors of
their small one room huts, listening to their stomachs growl with
hunger, while wishing towards a better afterlife.
And where was that ?
A little hint : Europe is a very varied place ...
Post by Paul J Gans
Post by a425couple
There you go 5gs, is that what you wanted?
I don't totally agree with this, but it is right enough. But we
should note that in China, India, Africa, etc., there never was
a concept of "progress" until the idea was introduced to them by
Europeans.
You don't need a concept of "progress" for making progress ...
Post by Paul J Gans
This is an aspect of what I sometimes call the "European Miracle"
where a mostly insignificant backwater in world technology and
history suddenly, at the end of the medieval period, went out and
discovered (and colonized) the rest of the world.
Backwater ?
Well, book print, gun powder (please don't give me the Chinese) which
actually led to usable weapons, modern agricultural techniques, etc.

Sure, it needed some time; hindered by various diseases (pox, measles,
Black Death, etc).
But : One of the advantages of Europe was that it wasn't a large
monolithic state like China.
With very different forms of government. And all the states fightimg
and competing with each other. A climate that lead to progress and
innovations; especially as the inventor could move to another country if
his remuneration wasn't right in his own country.
Compare that with China or the Osmans : No innovation; monolithic states.
And Africa ? Those not enslaved by the Moslems had enough land to exist;
no need for progress.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner
Erilar
2017-07-02 22:29:35 UTC
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Michael Kuettner <***@gmx.at> wrote:
.
Post by Michael Kuettner
Backwater ?
Well, book print, gun powder (please don't give me the Chinese) which
actually led to usable weapons, modern agricultural techniques, etc.
Sure, it needed some time; hindered by various diseases (pox, measles,
Black Death, etc).
But : One of the advantages of Europe was that it wasn't a large
monolithic state like China.
With very different forms of government. And all the states fightimg
and competing with each other. A climate that lead to progress and
innovations; especially as the inventor could move to another country if
his remuneration wasn't right in his own country.
Compare that with China or the Osmans : No innovation; monolithic states.
And Africa ? Those not enslaved by the Moslems had enough land to exist;
no need for progress.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Another waste of print, nicht wahr?
--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad
Weland
2017-07-03 05:24:00 UTC
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Post by Erilar
.
Post by Michael Kuettner
Backwater ?
Well, book print, gun powder (please don't give me the Chinese) which
actually led to usable weapons, modern agricultural techniques, etc.
Sure, it needed some time; hindered by various diseases (pox, measles,
Black Death, etc).
But : One of the advantages of Europe was that it wasn't a large
monolithic state like China.
With very different forms of government. And all the states fightimg
and competing with each other. A climate that lead to progress and
innovations; especially as the inventor could move to another country if
his remuneration wasn't right in his own country.
Compare that with China or the Osmans : No innovation; monolithic states.
And Africa ? Those not enslaved by the Moslems had enough land to exist;
no need for progress.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Another waste of print, nicht wahr?
--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad
I haven't read it, but I doubt it's a waste of print. It's a modern history by modernists. I'm sure when it gets to modern stuff its fine. Just another example of modernist historians getting the middle ages so very very wrong.
Erilar
2017-07-05 18:21:58 UTC
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Post by Weland
Post by Erilar
Another waste of print, nicht wahr?
--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad
I haven't read it, but I doubt it's a waste of print. It's a modern
history by modernists. I'm sure when it gets to modern stuff its fine.
Just another example of modernist historians getting the middle ages so very very wrong.
Well, that's a waste of time for actual medievalists!
--
Erilar/Mary, biblioholic medievalist via iPad
Weland
2017-07-07 18:28:29 UTC
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Post by Erilar
Post by Weland
Post by Erilar
Another waste of print, nicht wahr?
--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad
I haven't read it, but I doubt it's a waste of print. It's a modern
history by modernists. I'm sure when it gets to modern stuff its fine.
Just another example of modernist historians getting the middle ages so very very wrong.
Well, that's a waste of time for actual medievalists!
--
Erilar/Mary, biblioholic medievalist via iPad
too true! and worth correcting, again!

Weland
2017-06-25 23:44:41 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
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Bovine Feces. The idea of "progress" or even cultural change did not occur to pre-modern humanity and has nothing to do with religion or focus on "timeless" values.

Nor were they "content" blah blah blah. The inventions of the Medieval period that made life better were, well, invented in the Middle Ages to make life better. They weren't viewed as progress. Nor did their stomachs growl with hunger....sure there periods like the Great Famine of 1315 and such, but looking over a thousand years and a continent as a whole, people were well fed. Perhaps they didn't have the variety we do and food sources were more seasonal than ours, but to claim they sat in their "huts' and starved is just plain wrong.

Speaking of those "huts" let's not forget that some fabulously fantastic architecture was created in the MA, homes that were well furnished with luxuries. Sure, people at the very bottom of society would have "dirt" floors (nothing wrong with good clean dirt!) covered with handmade rugs and such, but not everyone, not even everyone in the peasent class and certainly not townies in the High and Late Middle Ages.

So yeah, I'd say most of that quotation is bollocks. The Middle Ages did not need the so-called Renaissance to save them, the Voyages of Discovery, etc....This is yet another modernist spouting off about a period he/they know nothing about. The notion of progress by the way is usally dated to the Enlightenment, not the Renaissance. And if German Sicard is correct, the first corporation in modern terms was in the 14th century....i. e. MEDIEVAL. Anyway, it's mostly an historical wrong snippet from a book by modern historians.
a425couple
2017-06-26 23:34:16 UTC
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Post by Weland
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Bovine Feces. The idea of "progress" or even cultural change did not occur to pre-modern humanity and has nothing to do with religion or focus on "timeless" values.
Nor were they "content" blah blah blah. The inventions of the Medieval period that made life better were, well, invented in the Middle Ages to make life better. They weren't viewed as progress. Nor did their stomachs growl with hunger....sure there periods like the Great Famine of 1315 and such, but looking over a thousand years and a continent as a whole, people were well fed.
Cow shit back to you for trying to imply the average serf
was consistently "well fed"!

https://books.google.com/books?id=imogEp66Q-gC&pg=PA26&dq=famines+in+France&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR6aD3ztzUAhVI1WMKHX1KAhMQ6AEILzAC#v=onepage&q=famines%20in%20France&f=false

Read Helen Robbins about famines, "For France she lists the years
1304, 1305, 1310, 1315, 1330-34, 1349-51, 1358-60, 1371, 1374-75,
and 1390 --- In the aParis region it is necessary to add 1322 and
1325 to the list.
By 1300, almost every child born in western Europe faced the
probability of extreme hunger at least one or twice during his
expected 30 to 35 years of life."

The Economy of Early Renaissance Europe, 1300-1460
By Harry A. Miskimin
Post by Weland
Speaking of those "huts" let's not forget that some fabulously fantastic
architecture was created in the MA, homes that were well furnished with luxuries."
And just who lived in that fantastic architecture?
Not the average person, that is for sure!
Post by Weland
Sure, people at the very bottom of society would have "dirt" floors
"very bottom" !!?? The vast majority were at the bottom.
Post by Weland
nothing wrong with good clean dirt!) covered with handmade rugs and such,
And how many wall to wall rugs were in the Domesday Inventory?
Most of the huts had dampness issues, and thus pests!

I had much better citations stored away, but turns out they were
only on my computer that died, and not off site.
You can search and find plenty of stories of famines.

I came from quite humble lower middle class, and I've done very well
for myself. The odds of doing that in the Middle ages are near
astronomical.
Weland
2017-07-03 05:09:31 UTC
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Bovine Feces. The idea of "progress" or even cultural change did not occur to pre-modern humanity and has nothing to do with religion or focus on "timeless" values.
Nor were they "content" blah blah blah. The inventions of the Medieval period that made life better were, well, invented in the Middle Ages to make life better. They weren't viewed as progress. Nor did their stomachs growl with hunger....sure there periods like the Great Famine of 1315 and such, but looking over a thousand years and a continent as a whole, people were well fed.
Cow shit back to you for trying to imply the average serf
was consistently "well fed"!
Well-fed in this context means having plenty to eat. And when again looking at a thousand year peri od from Ireland to the URLS and the tip of Norway to the tip of Sicily, that's true. For the people at the bottom, grains and cereals would make up most of the diet, necessary for the lord to provide plenty so that these folk can work in the fields. Ale would also be a staple, thicker than our modern stuff, it'd be almost a soup and a meal by the tankard! Legumes and eggs were common, and peasents with a plot of land grew vegetables and picked fruits which they perserved for winter, bacon, nuts, milk and whey, fish, esp freshwater eels, etc. There is no question that grains provided 2/3-3/4 of the diet, but to say people were consistently starving as the history by modern historians that you cited earlier claimed.
Post by a425couple
https://books.google.com/books?id=imogEp66Q-gC&pg=PA26&dq=famines+in+France&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR6aD3ztzUAhVI1WMKHX1KAhMQ6AEILzAC#v=onepage&q=famines%20in%20France&f=false
Read Helen Robbins about famines, "For France she lists the years
1304, 1305, 1310, 1315, 1330-34, 1349-51, 1358-60, 1371, 1374-75,
and 1390 --- In the aParis region it is necessary to add 1322 and
1325 to the list.
So wait, the Middle Ages is now the 14th century? Who knew!!!????! I'm' sure we all appreciate the enlightenment. And Paris of course is inclusive of the European Middle Ages!

There were some 8 centuries of the Middle Ages before 1300. In fact, your original book cited up thread stated its lies about the High Middle Ages--1300 is not the High Middle Ages in most accounts, but the Late Middle Ages, and in some regions even the misnamed Renaissance.

There were significant climatic shifts that were occurring c. 1300 transitioning from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age. The 14th century was a bad one--but to try and take that bad period as if it were the whole, or even the whole of High Middle Ages is again, just plain wrong.
Post by a425couple
By 1300, almost every child born in western Europe faced the
probability of extreme hunger at least one or twice during his
expected 30 to 35 years of life."
Yep, but the High Middle Ages were before 1300. Those climatic forces I was talking about above. So a child born in 1300 would experience the Great Famine of 1315, and any other micro famines. But again, your quote above to which I responded was about the High Middle Ages, not the 14th century.

BTW, as long as we're at it, the average life span in the 14th century was early to mid forties, it decreases as we move into the 15th and even 16th centuries.
Post by a425couple
Post by Weland
Speaking of those "huts" let's not forget that some fabulously fantastic
architecture was created in the MA, homes that were well furnished with luxuries."
And just who lived in that fantastic architecture?
Not the average person, that is for sure!
Sure, but then the quote you cited earlier up thread wasn't talking about the average person; remember it was a modernists (fallacious and erroneous) explanation why the High Middle Ages did not develop the idea of progress. That quote characterized the people, the intelligentsia, who would develop such a notion as huddling in huts. That is not the average person, not even in the High Middle Ages did the average person live in a hut with dirt floors.
Post by a425couple
Post by Weland
Sure, people at the very bottom of society would have "dirt" floors
"very bottom" !!?? The vast majority were at the bottom.
Yeah, no. Even among the peasentry there were large numbers of craftsman, merchants, and so on. These people had disposable cash, and so their in town homes for example would not have dirt floors. Even on the estates or the small farming villages there was differentiation between the poorest at the bottom and others such as reeves who were higher up and had better amenities in their homes. So lumping everyone in the lower classes as if they were all the same is as much a mistake for the Middle Ages as it is today. There were different levels, different incomes, different conditions.
Post by a425couple
Post by Weland
nothing wrong with good clean dirt!) covered with handmade rugs and such,
And how many wall to wall rugs were in the Domesday Inventory?
Most of the huts had dampness issues, and thus pests!
I don't recall any entry in the Doomsday Book getting so specific as to describing homespun rugs in peasent huts. I challenge you to produce such a detail. First, we're talking at the moment about England....so what if they had dampness issues? Cathedrals and manor houses had dampness issues. And pests. Hell, modern homes and buildings have those issues! Not sure how that disproves my point.
Post by a425couple
I had much better citations stored away, but turns out they were
only on my computer that died, and not off site.
You can search and find plenty of stories of famines.
Sure. The problem isn't finding famines. I could say that modern people eat well and you could come back and say, "O yeah, what about Haiti!" The presence of starving people in Haiti has no bearing on the fact that most Europeans and Americans have an amazing array of food at all times around the year. I can search in 21st century plenty of stories of famines, doesn't make my diet any the less fabulous by historical perspective.

I will also point out that your sources again talk about the 14th century. The original quote was about the High Middle Ages. Now even you might be able to realize why when your sources wanted to talk about famines they went to the 14th century, but not the High Middle Ages. It isn't hard to figure out.
Post by a425couple
I came from quite humble lower middle class, and I've done very well
for myself. The odds of doing that in the Middle ages are near
astronomical.
Depends greatly on what you mean by "very well" for oneself. Unlikely to change classes until the late period, esp. post 1350. But a reeve or craftsman or merchant could live comparatively comfortably.
Peter Jason
2017-06-27 22:19:08 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22for+the+first+time+began+to+involve+themselves%22#tbm=bks&q=%22the+people+of+the+high+middle+ages+did+not+develop+the+conception+of+progress%22
For a floating timetable map of Europe...
https://www.amazon.com/New-Penguin-Atlas-Medieval-History/dp/0140512497/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1498601828&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Penguin+Atlas+Of+Medieval+History+%281992%29%28#reader_0140512497
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